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Post by p2pgirl on Feb 4, 2020 10:22:33 GMT
I'm trying to remove emotions from the situation and make a rational decision on what to do with my investment with Lending Works. The main issue seems to be a high default rate in the LW loan portfolio that has drained the shield to a point where it is pretty much exhausted (oh, how I wish I listened to r00lish67 warnings last year). At the moment this is only impacting interest and not a haircut on my original investment. If I look at it objectively, and what I can earn elsewhere in P2P, then 5.4% across the next few years is an ok return (ignoring that interest in the immediate future is reduced based on past return). BUT, how do I trust that LW have addressed the quality of their loan portfolio? Presumably if defaults carry on at current levels then a haircut may come in the future? Does anyone have any insight into this? I asked Matthew as to how we can trust LW in the future and to give details on why he said that performance would pickup in H2 2020, but he didn't reply. I guess this forum is pretty hostile towards LW right now, so I can understand why he's gone quiet, but that doesn't help answer my question about wanting data so I can make an educated decision (rather than an emotional one). So my dilemma. Do I continue to trust LW with my investment, or do I take the penalty and exit?
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zlb
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Post by zlb on Feb 4, 2020 10:33:16 GMT
I'm trying to remove emotions from the situation and make a rational decision on what to do with my investment with Lending Works. The main issue seems to be a high default rate in the LW loan portfolio that has drained the shield to a point where it is pretty much exhausted (oh, how I wish I listened to r00lish67 warnings last year). At the moment this is only impacting interest and not a haircut on my original investment. If I look at it objectively, and what I can earn elsewhere in P2P, then 5.4% across the next few years is an ok return (ignoring that interest in the immediate future is reduced based on past return). BUT, how do I trust that LW have addressed the quality of their loan portfolio? Presumably if defaults carry on at current levels then a haircut may come in the future? Does anyone have any insight into this? I asked Matthew as to how we can trust LW in the future and to give details on why he said that performance would pickup in H2 2020, but he didn't reply. I guess this forum is pretty hostile towards LW right now, so I can understand why he's gone quiet, but that doesn't help answer my question about wanting data so I can make an educated decision (rather than an emotional one). So my dilemma. Do I continue to trust LW with my investment, or do I take the penalty and exit? nicely put, the ultimate question - C2F also promised improvement in due diligence and the same question applies. I try to see similarities between LW and Z (which has no pf) - but then I think the underlying borrowers may be different...? Z has been wobbling a bit because monthly earnings can be down to your luck of the draw as to which borrowers a lender was allocated. So roughly in the timeframe where Z was performing less well there were some negative earnings months, but I've had more + earnings months there over all. So if Z is OK ish ish ish (and your question applies there also), then would LW be so too even if it lost its pf? benaj pointed out an example LW borrower rate >15% - don't know whether that is the average. Might depend upon the value to the borrower - I know on Fund Ourselves, there are some short loans at higher rates and borrowers may use these, pay back earlier in order to improve their credit score. Don't know whether this analysis helps though.
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Post by befuddled on Feb 4, 2020 10:50:07 GMT
FWIW (no more ranting from me) I decided to sell out before the current debacle, and sold out most last year, just leaving a partial ISA on LW. My decision was based on reading negative sentiment on most of the P2P platforms (at that time nothing specifically on LW), FC - had their well documented high defaults (as they bloated the company pre IPO) liquidity problems where sellout times went from a few days to about a year Growth Street - MD suddenly left, and they had their own provision fund issues (possibly now rectified?) Ratesetter (my main platform - forever tweaking their system, and reducing rates, though in a reasonably fair and transparent way) Comments on here about weak provision funds on most of the platforms ! and a couple of platforms I was never involved with going bust.... I had about £40k in LW which was also above the recommended FCA holding and watching this video (specifically at 4:21 ) www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6hm9SxNdlgBy themselves maybe no particular point justifies selling up, (and maybe some are not accurate) - but taken as a whole it seemed the risk level had risen and the returns had fallen So weighing all pros and cons I decided to quietly exit all P2P - all went smoothly except the final slice at LW...where I took the 5% hit, and have another 5% of defaulted loans which can't sell, so I'm stuck with them for the time being... The ex-P2P funds have gone into a Vanguard tracker which *should* deliver more than 4.5% pa
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Feb 4, 2020 11:10:04 GMT
It's a tough one, but I think trying to view this as un-emotionally as possible is the right way forward. A few thoughts:
Re: the future performance of their loan portfolio, I personally find the revised statistics much less helpful in trying to read the runes. From what we can do, well, if we look at the lifetime default rate graph on their stats page it looks like defaults are levelling off for the 2017/2018 cohorts. But even if they are, I just don't know what exactly that will mean for lenders. It's better overall, but how much needs to go to the shield to keep it at zero? I don't think it's possible to calculate that from the information provided.
More subjectively, we know that LW have a high risk appetite at the moment. The average borrower APR has increased sharply, up to 14.0% for 2019, truly very high. 40% of the loans they issue are for debt consolidation. That's not necessarily a bad thing, higher yield might bring higher returns even with more defaults. I'm personally not sure about it though - Zopa+ didn't fare well, and FC D/E loans were an interesting bunch. Again, the revised stats now prevent us from tracking expected v actual by year cohort, so not very helpful.
Re: liquidity, it's probably a fair bet that demand for LW has/will somewhat dampen. They could also be subject to some bad press because of the sellout situation. It's probably worth considering whether you're comfortable with whatever funds you have there being stuck for the long haul. There's definitely a risk of that happening.
Re: platform stability, there's no point pretending there's no risk here, far too many P2P car-crashes around not to. A lack of future investor funds will surely not help their origination and hence future profit, but again that depends on how much (if any) bad press they receive. What the consequence of that risk occurring is I suppose depends on your faith in their wind-down plans.
I'm sure it's coming across that I'm far less confident about this than I was about where the stats were headed last year, and others are far more experienced than I about the ongoing strength of lending operations. If it was my money personally though, I would mostly be concerned about liquidity/platform risk as opposed to loanbook performance in trying to decide.
Tough call, good luck in whatever you decide.
Btw I left too early and paid 1.5%, my crystal ball didn't extend to predicting a fee-free sellout!
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Feb 4, 2020 12:01:38 GMT
All investments carry some element of risk. The problem is that we don't fully understand all the risks even after some appropriateness tests, and it is more difficult to understand the risk when information is not transparent nor up-to-date.
We have seen product names and T&Cs change frequently in the recent P2P lending market. Prior to LW's products change, LW was offering 3 year and 5 year products, and they have been recently changed to Flexible and Growth. The product names themselves do not suggest the investments are liquid.
AIUI, the Shield's Contingency Fund is low and it needs immediate fix to avoid capital loss. If LW had followed RS months ago by adjusting the rate earlier, we might be in a different position. Assuming the latest numbers provided by LW are correct, the pain of lower interest repayment will be short term and we will see an improvement in H2.
For those who decide to sell out now, the penalty hit is unavoidable but they will have complete control of the accessed fund. Comparing LW Growth to FC Balanced, LW XIRR will probably do better when sell out is avoided. My lowest XIRR for one of my FC account is 2.7% (age 20 months).
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Post by jojo on Feb 4, 2020 12:08:20 GMT
I think not having an emotional decision is surely the right one. LW is like any savings fund, it is not short term investment, otherwise we can put at the bank at 0.1 % and can easily draw but return is very little. I think overtime the shortfalls fees should reduce and interest rate should come back to normal, people have to average what they have earned so far on interest and how much it represents if you annualized , it is still pretty good on my side. People are talking about complaining to fca but it would make things more difficult like said by some people on this forum. Some are complaining because LW did anticipate the shield that was not big enough and they are probably the same people that would have complain even more if LW would have done nothing with much bigger consequences.
So all in all, disappointed to have this period of lower rate and higher shortfall fees but I prefer to wait and see, i prefer to have my arrears paid off and a lower rate interest rate.
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ashtondav
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Post by ashtondav on Feb 4, 2020 12:16:50 GMT
You can be assured that if Mathew, or his colleagues, had any words of comfort that could be substantiated by facts he would be posting on here, or blogging, with reassurance.
He is not.
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Ukmikk
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Post by Ukmikk on Feb 4, 2020 12:53:18 GMT
You can be assured that if Mathew, or his colleagues, had any words of comfort that could be substantiated by facts he would be posting on here, or blogging, with reassurance.
He is not.
Very good point. The silence speaks volumes. They haven't even had the basic decency to apologise to lenders for monumentally ****ing up. Unless I missed it?
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Post by carol167 on Feb 4, 2020 13:55:42 GMT
I'm just waiting on a response by LW to my formal complaint to them first thing Monday before deciding what to do about my ISA.
I've already cashed what I could of the Classic (8k) and took a £400 hit in the last couple of days. The ISA will cost me £3,000 - painful.
I'm not worried about interest reduction going forward, I am more concerned with platform risk due to damage to their reputation. I have absolutely no trust left. When I see clever and clued up people in this forum struggling to make some sense of it all because of a lack of suitable stats from LW- the alarm bells are ringing very loudly. LW are keeping silent - despite the messy stuff clearly hitting the fan - and that in itself is worrying.
The future seems full of if's, buts, best guesses and maybes and the need to trust that LW know what they're doing (which has worked out so well so far!).
I'm hedging towards better the bird with a clipped wing in my hand than two extinct dodo's in the bush.
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on Feb 4, 2020 14:00:32 GMT
I ummed and ahhed - and have now requested a sell out for everything bar the 10% not currently sellable. Reduces my all-time XIRR to 3.66% on LW (assuming the 10% is eventually returned via the replenished Shield) But I get peace of mind (for 90% of capital a least). I think the platform risk is now too high for the 2-3% I would have been getting for the forseeable. Although I won't feel totally safe until the loan chunks are actually sold.
Edit: The actual hit to sell will be 5.26%+0.5% (total of £876 out of lifetime platform ISA interest of £3080)
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kathy
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Post by kathy on Feb 4, 2020 14:33:45 GMT
After careful thought I am out too apart from a few hundred pounds in iffy loans which hopefully will end up being repaid one way or another. I didn't like the price of getting out but over the three years I have been with LW I am still in profit and my capital is now safe. Interestingly the whole process has taken just a matter of a few hours.
It saddens me that it has come to this as LW was one of my favourite platforms but like others I feel, rightly or wrongly, that I have been deceived and my trust in LW has gone for good.
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Post by p2pgirl on Feb 4, 2020 15:05:34 GMT
I'm sure it's coming across that I'm far less confident about this than I was about where the stats were headed last year, and others are far more experienced than I about the ongoing strength of lending operations. If it was my money personally though, I would mostly be concerned about liquidity/platform risk as opposed to loanbook performance in trying to decide. Thanks roolish67. That's my primary concern - losing a portion or whole of my initially invested sum. ROI is important, but not the most important factor. I originally chose LW because I saw it as lower risk, but that is no longer the case. Now the question will be what to do with my withdrawn sum (assuming there is liquidity). Of the remaining p2p companies I'm in, I'm nervous about defaults at Kuflink and monitoring closely, RS is verging on too low a return for the risk, and I like AC but feel I'm too heavily invested. I'm too heavily invested in S&S's for my liking (hence why I came to p2p originally) although my Vanguard Lifestrategy fund has returned 12% in the last year. So perhaps back to a regular savings account although the interest rate is so low these days. What are others doing?
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Post by Ace on Feb 4, 2020 16:03:53 GMT
I'm sure it's coming across that I'm far less confident about this than I was about where the stats were headed last year, and others are far more experienced than I about the ongoing strength of lending operations. If it was my money personally though, I would mostly be concerned about liquidity/platform risk as opposed to loanbook performance in trying to decide. Thanks roolish67. That's my primary concern - losing a portion or whole of my initially invested sum. ROI is important, but not the most important factor. I originally chose LW because I saw it as lower risk, but that is no longer the case. Now the question will be what to do with my withdrawn sum (assuming there is liquidity). Of the remaining p2p companies I'm in, I'm nervous about defaults at Kuflink and monitoring closely, RS is verging on too low a return for the risk, and I like AC but feel I'm too heavily invested. I'm too heavily invested in S&S's for my liking (hence why I came to p2p originally) although my Vanguard Lifestrategy fund has returned 12% in the last year. So perhaps back to a regular savings account although the interest rate is so low these days. What are others doing? Since you asked, other than those you've mentioned, I'm sending these type of funds to: Loanpad - I like their very low LTVs and increasing diversification as the fund grows, have tested their same day withdraws with largish sums, and am up to 6% in their 90day account due to f&f referrals. CrowdProperty - looks like excellent DD and loan management for headline rates of 8% IMO. Unbolted - well managed and no losses in 2 years now for me. Good diversification into uncoordinated lending compared with my property loans. Consistently over 8% for me. Growth Street - to a lesser degree. I like the monthly access to funds, but am less confident in them as the others.
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on Feb 4, 2020 16:04:35 GMT
Now the question will be what to do with my withdrawn sum (assuming there is liquidity). Of the remaining p2p companies I'm in, I'm nervous about defaults at Kuflink and monitoring closely, RS is verging on too low a return for the risk, and I like AC but feel I'm too heavily invested. I'm too heavily invested in S&S's for my liking (hence why I came to p2p originally) although my Vanguard Lifestrategy fund has returned 12% in the last year. So perhaps back to a regular savings account although the interest rate is so low these days. What are others doing? I have the same conundrum. If I exclude some cash set aside for property, I'm roughly 60/30/10 equities/cash/P2P, which is I think where I'm most comfortable at the moment. Cash isn't so bad a place to be really I suppose, esp. if you're in fixed rate terms. 1.8%-2% p.a when inflation is 1.4% is at least a positive real return. By comparison, a year ago or so we were underwater with circa 2% return and 2.5%+ inflation.
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Post by befuddled on Feb 4, 2020 16:08:36 GMT
I'm sure it's coming across that I'm far less confident about this than I was about where the stats were headed last year, and others are far more experienced than I about the ongoing strength of lending operations. If it was my money personally though, I would mostly be concerned about liquidity/platform risk as opposed to loanbook performance in trying to decide. Thanks roolish67. That's my primary concern - losing a portion or whole of my initially invested sum. ROI is important, but not the most important factor. I originally chose LW because I saw it as lower risk, but that is no longer the case. Now the question will be what to do with my withdrawn sum (assuming there is liquidity). Of the remaining p2p companies I'm in, I'm nervous about defaults at Kuflink and monitoring closely, RS is verging on too low a return for the risk, and I like AC but feel I'm too heavily invested. I'm too heavily invested in S&S's for my liking (hence why I came to p2p originally) although my Vanguard Lifestrategy fund has returned 12% in the last year. So perhaps back to a regular savings account although the interest rate is so low these days. What are others doing?....I put a chunk in Vanguard Emerging Markets (VFEM), hopeful the bashing it's taken from Coronavirus will be temporary, but it's a high risk, but unlike P2P, offers potential high return..... (and a 2.59% dividend) "They" always say don't time the markets - but that particular market may look interesting right now as it's been hard hit by the Coronavirus, which should pass.....
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