star dust
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Post by star dust on Feb 19, 2020 23:41:09 GMT
Meanwhile we should ( according to mrc) offshore our oldest, nearest and dearest to... Tunisia I guess? Maybe Morocco? Seeing as the EU will be off limits. EDIT: I wonder how that will go down with the run of the mill Tory voter?
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 20, 2020 0:14:43 GMT
Meanwhile we should ( according to mrc) offshore our oldest, nearest and dearest to... Tunisia I guess? Maybe Morocco? Seeing as the EU will be off limits. EDIT: I wonder how that will go down with the run of the mill Tory voter? Northern Cyprus ? Turkey ? More realistic though is high unemployment spots in Spain such as La Linea / Algeciras close to Gibraltar airport, Portugal etc. (Typed before seeing the Thailand link in the post above)
I was of course being deiberately provocative, as that becomes the ultimate extension of free market / globalisation. But its perhaps not that far fetched conceptually ... there are plenty of Brits that go go and live in Spain in their late 60's/70's but return to the UK once they reach their 80's and need care.
It could be argued that there is / will be a need for Labour to argue for a more social/compassionate face on a free market foundation, which is unlikely whilst they are preoccupied with Marxist/Trotskyist/Stalinist thinking.
A lot of what I have been reading about China in the last month is fascinating and frightening in equal measure. I've long realised that much of China's economy has transformed over the last 20 or 30 years to such an extent that at one level it is simply a variant of the capitalist economies with which we are familiar. But dig deeper, and the degree of monitoring and control the party has over its citizens is straight out of George Orwell's 1984. I struggle to get my head round the concept that China's philosphy these days is "Communist" with everyone equal (within their abilities / expertise etc).
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2020 0:23:22 GMT
I'm surprised that your newfound understanding of China comes as such a revelation.
As for OAPs and Spain, well, yeah, we kind of screwed the pooch on that didn't we.
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Post by df on Feb 20, 2020 3:00:18 GMT
"But Patel insisted that 20% of available working age people were inactive and could be encouraged into work." Hilarious. You voted the EU workers out. Now you are left with the work. In my personal opinion - not just Priti, but the whole cohort (incl. the leader) are economically (and politically) clueless. No wonder why Donald endorsed Boris. I recall a couple of years ago Priti was forced to resign from the government for abusing her position.
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cb25
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Post by cb25 on Feb 20, 2020 10:16:55 GMT
Meanwhile we should ( according to mrc) offshore our oldest, nearest and dearest to... Tunisia I guess? Maybe Morocco? Seeing as the EU will be off limits. EDIT: I wonder how that will go down with the run of the mill Tory voter? It could be argued that there is / will be a need for Labour to argue for a more social/compassionate face on a free market foundation, which is unlikely whilst they are preoccupied with Marxist/Trotskyist/Stalinist thinking.
Labour would rather debate 'trans women are real women' rather than have a honest debate about the pros/cons of large scale immigration. One might have expected those on the left politically would be in favour of wage growth at the low end, but apparently not if it clashes with freedom of movement.
The thing that surprised me in the papers since this policy was announced wasn't the Guardian but the reader comments in the Telegraph which had a surprising number (to me at least) of readers who were for wage inflation at the low end even if it lead to consumer price inflation.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Feb 20, 2020 11:07:11 GMT
Some big differences with the Aussie system for sure. Also reminded me that on 23 Dec a HoC briefing document was released on the topic of pensions review with a chunky appendix regarding the Australian pension system as a success story for the UK government to strive towards. That's characterized by 2 main principles: 1. means tested state pension, only granted after 10 years of residence and you must be resident in Australia on date of first payment; 2. contributions from net income but payments tax free (as well as majority flexible drawdown-based funds).
I can't help but wonder if PP's insistence "that 20% of available working age people were inactive and could be encouraged into work", isn't based simply on increasing the definition of working age and making the over 60s a little bit poorer than they were planning to be....
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 20, 2020 13:01:04 GMT
Re the Great Strawberry Dilemma of 2020, I'm old enough to remember the time before we joined the Common Market. Somehow we managed to survive - and occasionally enjoy good strawberries - before the army of EU waitresses, fruit pickers, plumbers and decorators came to our rescue and (apparently, from some of the posts above) bailed out the UK economy. However did our renowned Somerset, Kent, Perthshire strawberries make it into our shops pre-EU? Past history suggests we'll somehow manage to adapt and struggle through.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 20, 2020 13:31:59 GMT
I work in the construction industry and we occassionally get involved in reinstating large grassed areas. The tractor that has the seeding attachment on the back comes fitted with GPS to ensure that they don't miss any bits, and that they don't go over the same area twice. I'm all for technology, and all for improving the UK's productivity. So I applaud the investment in whatever's fitted to that tractor. Does it still have a driver?Yes. He's the one that moans when you tell him that he has to clean all the mud off his tyres before going back onto the public highway.
We use GPS all the time. If you are on a project that involves large amounts of earthworks (for example cut and fill to form a new road) the designer can give you the design as an electronic file that plugs into the bulldozer. It then tootles off down the site pushing all the soil to the correct profile.
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corto
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Post by corto on Feb 20, 2020 15:03:09 GMT
No, they can't come if they don't speak the language or if the suspected salary is not high enough You also miss the main point. Pratel fully complies with them not coming .. her target are now the "20% economically inactive people" Think it over what that means I said that they must now qualify for the appropriate visa. English language proficiency and a qualifying salary are just two of the criteria, there are several more. The point is though, that they are now treated the same as everyone else who wants to come to the UK. Thanks lara. You didn't get t he point. I was not speaking about people that may or may not want to come into your lovely country. I was speaking about the government targeting their own people now.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Feb 20, 2020 16:09:29 GMT
I said that they must now qualify for the appropriate visa. English language proficiency and a qualifying salary are just two of the criteria, there are several more. The point is though, that they are now treated the same as everyone else who wants to come to the UK. Thanks lara. You didn't get t he point. I was not speaking about people that may or may not want to come into your lovely country. I was speaking about the government targeting their own people now. If you want to call it targeting there are always initiatives to encourage people who don't work for one reason or another to get into employment. These range from making it difficult for the work shy to avoid getting a job, to encouraging companies to allow flexible working, to helping women with children who want to work to get child care, to giving incentives for companies to take on young inexperienced people and people with disabilities who may find it difficult to get appropriate work. Nothing changes in that regard. As Lara said it's just that the playing field has been levelled for EU and non-EU people wanting to work in the UK. No doubt exceptions will be made where there are shortages of labour, again as there always have been.
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Vero
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Post by Vero on Feb 20, 2020 16:57:34 GMT
Re "strawberries". I don't doubt for a second that the agricultural industry will benefit from automation and technology over the long term, whether from drone monitoring, better use of pesticides / fertillisers, better weather forecasting or, indeed, robot pickers etc. But in the short term, with no trade deal in sight, I very much doubt the wisdom of investing significant amounts of capital in what is, when compared with other industries, relatively low value add (~0.6% of GDP in 2018). Particularly given the uncertainties around our major export market. So we'll either go without, or prices will rocket (which, for most people, will amount to going without), or we'll import them. Oh, wait a minute... And I completely I agree with you that we should be focusing on high value activity, but that necessitates being able to meet low value add requirements. Which means imports. Oh, wait a minute... Or getting our decrepit off balance sheet exporting our old and infirm. I don't even know where to start. EDIT: I found one - octinion.com/products/agricultural-robotics/rubion. No price mentioned . Actually registerme - positive news - the UK agribusiness is (alongside the US), pioneering in agri-robotics, automation and AI. They already have all sorts of AI, robots, pollinator drones, pickerbots, weedmappers, chemical-free weederbots, harvesters, etc.
I invested a tiny bit in a UK agri-robot startup, so looked into it.
I found lots of bright, dedicated young people doing great, clever, sustainable, moneysaving and planet saving work.
(& innovating - eg RAAS - robots as a service; farmers just pay for them when they need them, saves overall)
There are many more companies, around the world, in agrirobotics & AI, from startups to the huge John Deeres & Caterpillars.
Here is just a tiny bit of info (there are reams more if you ask google):
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bg
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Post by bg on Feb 20, 2020 17:30:18 GMT
There is absolutely a case for increasing productivity in the UK, and this may help in that regard. But it doesn't change the fact that "economically inactive" as a phrase is a load of old tosh. Even a 16 year old on benefits, with no qualifications, who spends twenty hours a day playing Pokemon is economically active - they live somewhere, they consume something. That's economic activity right there. Christ, even prisoners are "economically active". She should say what she actually means rather than invent a meaningless phrase to make herself sound clever. And that, as bracknellboy mentions above, might be thought of as a fig leaf for other concerns. She hasn't invented this phrase though, its a well used economic term that has been used since before she was born. UK Economically Inactive
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2020 17:30:48 GMT
I don't disagree. I still think it's a rubbish term .
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 20, 2020 17:36:48 GMT
Re "strawberries". I don't doubt for a second that the agricultural industry will benefit from automation and technology over the long term, whether from drone monitoring, better use of pesticides / fertillisers, better weather forecasting or, indeed, robot pickers etc. But in the short term, with no trade deal in sight, I very much doubt the wisdom of investing significant amounts of capital in what is, when compared with other industries, relatively low value add (~0.6% of GDP in 2018). Particularly given the uncertainties around our major export market. So we'll either go without, or prices will rocket (which, for most people, will amount to going without), or we'll import them. Oh, wait a minute... And I completely I agree with you that we should be focusing on high value activity, but that necessitates being able to meet low value add requirements. Which means imports. Oh, wait a minute... Or getting our decrepit off balance sheet exporting our old and infirm. I don't even know where to start. EDIT: I found one - octinion.com/products/agricultural-robotics/rubion. No price mentioned . Actually registerme - positive news - the UK agribusiness is (alongside the US), pioneering in agri-robotics, automation and AI. They already have all sorts of AI, robots, pollinator drones, pickerbots, weedmappers, chemical-free weederbots, harvesters, etc.
I invested a tiny bit in a UK agri-robot startup, so looked into it.
I found lots of bright, dedicated young people doing great, clever, sustainable, moneysaving and planet saving work.
(& innovating - eg RAAS - robots as a service; farmers just pay for them when they need them, saves overall)
There are many more companies, around the world, in agrirobotics & AI, from startups to the huge John Deeres & Caterpillars.
Here is just a tiny bit of info (there are reams more if you ask google):
All of which is great news. My point wasn't that agriculture wouldn't benefit from tech in one way or another (indeed, it needs to). My point was that the industry wasn't in a position to invest enough, in enough appropriate tech, to offset the loss of low skilled employment. A couple of quick quotes from this - www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/labourintheagricultureindustry/2018-02-06"The British Growers Association (BGA) survey is the best estimate of “positions filled” by all non-UK seasonal workers in the horticulture sector, for 2016 this was 75,000. However, the BGA survey only enquires about non-UK employees". "The National Farmers Union (NFU) Seasonal Supply of Labour survey, which only looks at seasonal agricultural workers recruited by labour providers, estimates that 99% of seasonal labour is provided by EU workers". (There are a couple of important provisos there re data quality but the gist of it remains true). The result will be that either that fruit and veg doesn't get picked (I can't wait for the moaning about the lack of sprouts next Christmas), or the prices will rise, or we'll import it. Or, as others have suggested, the government will just change the rules (again).
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bg
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Post by bg on Feb 20, 2020 17:41:42 GMT
It could be argued that there is / will be a need for Labour to argue for a more social/compassionate face on a free market foundation, which is unlikely whilst they are preoccupied with Marxist/Trotskyist/Stalinist thinking.
Labour would rather debate 'trans women are real women' rather than have a honest debate about the pros/cons of large scale immigration. One might have expected those on the left politically would be in favour of wage growth at the low end, but apparently not if it clashes with freedom of movement.
The thing that surprised me in the papers since this policy was announced wasn't the Guardian but the reader comments in the Telegraph which had a surprising number (to me at least) of readers who were for wage inflation at the low end even if it lead to consumer price inflation.
Labour seem to have transcended into the party of outrage. Everything that is announced, every news story, every event and there is someone from the left on TV acting righteous and superior (Ash Sarkar, Owen Jones, Grace Blakeley etc). But they still wonder why their core voters have deserted them in droves.
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