alender
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Post by alender on May 20, 2020 12:29:22 GMT
Hi alender - your good intentions are entirely understood and your kind words appreciated! Firstly, I just want to say, though, that I didn't 'accuse' you of trolling - I asked if you were and said I couldn't tell. This was out of genuine disbelief and suspicion that you might have been - but clearly this was not the case. People maybe take this term differently to how I imagine they would as I'm likely a fair bit younger than most people on this forum, and this behaviour does happen a lot online. You might have seen others on this forum who engaged with me in recent weeks who clearly were being disingenuous in their claims and discussions given they were later found to be lying. Secondly, I'd like to stress again that my frustration never comes from people not knowing things (I work in academia, I am used to teaching people things they don't know and learning things I don't know - it always seems to be an enjoyable experience for all). What I do get frustrated about is when I perceive that someone isn't bothering, for example, to read and attempt to understand what I've written, before just stating the same thing again. Other examples include not bothering to actually read through platforms' terms and conditions and understand them. Others, still, post completely inaccurate information without checking it first and react negatively when you point this out. This isn't lack of 'knowledge' per se, it's laziness (and sometimes arrogance). As I've said above, most of this stuff doesn't concern special knowledge I have, it's just that I bother to actually go and read up to educate myself and understand. I will do my best to be more patient with people, but I would also urge others not to post clearly inaccurate or spurious claims (think/check before posting), to engage with what others are actually saying rather than misrepresenting them, and to try hard to actually fully read and understand what someone has posted before replying. Perhaps I'm expecting too much, though. Your points are well made and understood, I have seen some of your posts which have on AC where the responders clearly are not reading/understanding what you are saying.
You are also correct that you did not accuse me of trolling but asked the question whether I was. Apologies.
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Post by garreh on May 20, 2020 12:42:03 GMT
First I would like to say that I am not taking sides, commenting on recent posts and do not want to start some sort of argument. I was a person who you accused of trolling you about the facility which had gone bad and had issues on another subject. I am a technical and was at a reasonable senior technical level in investment banking so have understanding on the technical but not the legal side. I always found if I did not have 100% understanding of something I would continue to ask questions (not matter now stupid they seem) until I fully understood otherwise we would not always get the best outcome, this worked well as it sometimes showed up unexpected issues. Unfortunately you seem sometimes take things the wrong way or expect other people to have either more knowledge than they have or be as forensic in the analysis of words as you are.
However I very much appreciate your contribution on this and other boards, at times invaluable, I know you do spend a lot of time researching and point people to the places to find the info and it is frustrating when this is ignored. I would respectfully ask you to please keep up your superb input but be a little more tolerant of other people who do not have your knowledge, we cannot all be good in all areas. I just want to say, though, that I didn't 'accuse' you of trolling - I asked if you were and said I couldn't tell. This was out of genuine disbelief and suspicion that you might have been - but clearly this was not the case. People maybe take this term differently to how I imagine they would as I'm likely a fair bit younger than most people on this forum Your a man of language, carefully picking his words - using the word "troll" is a particulary strong one to use, even if you didn't "acuse" someone even using the word and pointing it in their direction does stick in peoples minds, especially if they didn't have any ill intentions. A troll is someone who posts inflammatory messages with the *intent* of provoking you into displaying an emotional response. My intrepretion over the exchanges you've had with people are that they are not "trolling" at all, instead it's often a differing opinion or way of looking at something, or simply a misunderstanding. Anyway, as you mentioned, people's savings are on the line (and so turn to forums for guidance and support) so let's keep this a positive spiritied place for us all! On the up..... deployment rate is at 87.8% today chaps 😁
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 20, 2020 12:54:56 GMT
I just want to say, though, that I didn't 'accuse' you of trolling - I asked if you were and said I couldn't tell. This was out of genuine disbelief and suspicion that you might have been - but clearly this was not the case. People maybe take this term differently to how I imagine they would as I'm likely a fair bit younger than most people on this forum Your a man of language, carefully picking his words - u sing the word "troll" is a particulary strong one to use, even if you didn't "acuse" someone even using the word and pointing it in their direction does stick in peoples minds, especially if they didn't have any ill intentions. A troll is someone who posts inflammatory messages with the *intent* of provoking you into displaying an emotional response. My intrepretion over the exchanges you've had with people are that they are not "trolling" at all, instead it's often a differing opinion or way of looking at something, or simply a misunderstanding. Anyway, as you mentioned, people's savings are on the line (and so turn to forums for guidance and support) so let's keep this a positive spiritied place for us all! On the up..... deployment rate is at 87.8% today chaps 😁 My point is that I'm afraid I don't know if they have ill intentions or not - which is why I ask in exasperation. As I mentioned above, you may have seen another user on the RS board clearly did have ill intentions recently, in that they outright lied about their investment position to try to strengthen their argument. They were caught out; others won't be. I'm afraid that I'm constantly mindful that this is an anonymous forum and skepticism is healthy and important. And I have to say once again that this isn't just about 'differing opinions'. You can have opinions on some things (and I'll never be harsh with someone for just having a different opinion to me!), but other things are just factually correct or incorrect. That difference is really important. Anyway - alas the deployment rate I fear is not going to help me  We've not heard a further peep about a solution and time is running out to avoid a Resolution Event. Sadly, my loans also won't be coming up for rollover around the time the RE is called (if it's exactly 90 days after the LE was called - maybe it won't be?) so it's unlikely I'll benefit from the cash buffer that's built up.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 20, 2020 12:56:34 GMT
Hi alender - your good intentions are entirely understood and your kind words appreciated! Firstly, I just want to say, though, that I didn't 'accuse' you of trolling - I asked if you were and said I couldn't tell. This was out of genuine disbelief and suspicion that you might have been - but clearly this was not the case. People maybe take this term differently to how I imagine they would as I'm likely a fair bit younger than most people on this forum, and this behaviour does happen a lot online. You might have seen others on this forum who engaged with me in recent weeks who clearly were being disingenuous in their claims and discussions given they were later found to be lying. Secondly, I'd like to stress again that my frustration never comes from people not knowing things (I work in academia, I am used to teaching people things they don't know and learning things I don't know - it always seems to be an enjoyable experience for all). What I do get frustrated about is when I perceive that someone isn't bothering, for example, to read and attempt to understand what I've written, before just stating the same thing again. Other examples include not bothering to actually read through platforms' terms and conditions and understand them. Others, still, post completely inaccurate information without checking it first and react negatively when you point this out. This isn't lack of 'knowledge' per se, it's laziness (and sometimes arrogance). As I've said above, most of this stuff doesn't concern special knowledge I have, it's just that I bother to actually go and read up to educate myself and understand. I will do my best to be more patient with people, but I would also urge others not to post clearly inaccurate or spurious claims (think/check before posting), to engage with what others are actually saying rather than misrepresenting them, and to try hard to actually fully read and understand what someone has posted before replying. Perhaps I'm expecting too much, though. Your points are well made and understood, I have seen some of your posts which have on AC where the responders clearly are not reading/understanding what you are saying.
You are also correct that you did not accuse me of trolling but asked the question whether I was. Apologies.
You absolutely don't have to apologise!  I'm very sorry to have suspected it - perhaps I'm just far too jaded and pessimistic regarding the internet these days...
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Post by garreh on May 20, 2020 13:38:23 GMT
Anyway - alas the deployment rate I fear is not going to help me We've not heard a further peep about a solution and time is running out to avoid a Resolution Event. Sadly, my loans also won't be coming up for rollover around the time the RE is called (if it's exactly 90 days after the LE was called - maybe it won't be?) so it's unlikely I'll benefit from the cash buffer that's built up. Is that by checking the Your Loans page? That's unfortunate you won't benefit from it. I had a look at my page and seems have around 30% of money whose contract date (ranging between 16th - 19th June) runs out a few days before the potential Resolution Event (which is around 18th Jun ?) if deployment rate continues to go down and takes longer to match loans then maybe those funds would not get matched in time and be available for withdrawal straight away. Could go either way I guess. With so little time left this is why I've been so frustrated with GS in their communication and response to this event - I know they are bound by their terms blah blah but it's still frustrating compared to other P2P platforms (in particular, AC) who are taking a proactive and transparent approach to dealing with the event. GS have been virtually mute with the exception of their most recent communication only just sent a few weeks ago that gave a bit more details about what they are actively exploring. There's literally 1 month left of the Liquidity Event and we're not getting any updates. Is this a sign that minimal work is happening behind the scenes, or that they are flat out busy working on ways to change their terms, implement a queued withdrawals system, seek alternative funding ?? GS if your reading this - please give us more information.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 20, 2020 13:53:35 GMT
Anyway - alas the deployment rate I fear is not going to help me We've not heard a further peep about a solution and time is running out to avoid a Resolution Event. Sadly, my loans also won't be coming up for rollover around the time the RE is called (if it's exactly 90 days after the LE was called - maybe it won't be?) so it's unlikely I'll benefit from the cash buffer that's built up. Is that by checking the Your Loans page? That's unfortunate you won't benefit from it. I had a look at my page and seems have around 30% of money whose contract date (ranging between 16th - 19th June) runs out a few days before the potential Resolution Event (which is around 18th Jun ?) if deployment rate continues to go down and takes longer to match loans then maybe those funds would not get matched in time and be available for withdrawal straight away. Could go either way I guess. With so little time left this is why I've been so frustrated with GS in their communication and response to this event - I know they are bound by their terms blah blah but it's still frustrating compared to other P2P platforms (in particular, AC) who are taking a proactive and transparent approach to dealing with the event. GS have been virtually mute with the exception of their most recent communication only just sent a few weeks ago that gave a bit more details about what they are actively exploring. There's literally 1 month left of the Liquidity Event and we're not getting any updates. Is this a sign that minimal work is happening behind the scenes, or that they are flat out busy working on ways to change their terms, implement a queued withdrawals system, seek alternative funding ?? GS if your reading this - please give us more information. By my calculation, 14 June is 90 days after the LE was called (but that's a Sunday, so maybe 15 June?). Of course, we don't know for sure whether it would be actioned exactly 90 days after or not... But it definitely sounds like you're within a shot (for that 30% at least) if this is what happens. My current loans expire on 30 May, so it appears unlikely for me. Yes, I was okay with what GS seemed to be doing for a while, but if we don't receive an update this week I'll be a bit concerned. I don't think it's necessarily indicative of anything in particular for now (even if they were in the advanced stages of something, for example, they understandably might not want to disclose this until it was finalised). We will have to wait a little longer...
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rogedavi
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Post by rogedavi on May 21, 2020 13:14:13 GMT
my suspicion is they will bury their head in the sand and declare the liquidity event as ongoing (and dictate that to in the lenders best interests of course whilst all the while claiming that they have robust processes and risk management procedures in place to fix things).
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on May 21, 2020 13:54:04 GMT
my suspicion is they will bury their head in the sand and declare the liquidity event as ongoing (and dictate that to in the lenders best interests of course whilst all the while claiming that they have robust processes and risk management procedures in place to fix things). Not sure if that's an option - are they not bound by their own terms to declare a Resolution Event after 90 days if they've not been able to fix liquidity? I suppose there might be a bit of wiggle room about whether the liquidity problems have in fact been resolved, but it feels unlikely that they will get close enough to be within wriggling range.
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Post by bikeman on May 21, 2020 19:29:42 GMT
Today I received an email from GS which apart from promising a higher interest rate (really?), seemed to be more around their commitment to keeping a credit line for their borrowers than returning capital to their investors. Have I bought into an open ended credit line from which I can never escape?
Can someone enlighten me - what exactly are GS doing to 'fix' liquidity (apart from selling off their loan book and walking away) if they are not accepting new investment?
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morris
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Post by morris on May 21, 2020 19:37:36 GMT
Today I received an email from GS which apart from promising a higher interest rate (really?), seemed to be more around their commitment to keeping a credit line for their borrowers than returning capital to their investors. Have I bought into an open ended credit line from which I can never escape? Can someone enlighten me - what exactly are GS doing to 'fix' liquidity (apart from selling off their loan book and walking away) if they are not accepting new investment? You omitted to mention that this is solely for investors in the ISA with a higher rate payable from the date of maturity of the bond until repayment (if repayment ever comes).
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 21, 2020 19:58:35 GMT
my suspicion is they will bury their head in the sand and declare the liquidity event as ongoing (and dictate that to in the lenders best interests of course whilst all the while claiming that they have robust processes and risk management procedures in place to fix things). Not sure if that's an option - are they not bound by their own terms to declare a Resolution Event after 90 days if they've not been able to fix liquidity? I suppose there might be a bit of wiggle room about whether the liquidity problems have in fact been resolved, but it feels unlikely that they will get close enough to be within wriggling range. Agree with this - they are bound pretty clearly in their terms to declare a RE is the LE isn't 'remedied' after 90 days. (Also agree that there is no definition of what 'remedy' might constitute) Today I received an email from GS which apart from promising a higher interest rate (really?), seemed to be more around their commitment to keeping a credit line for their borrowers than returning capital to their investors. Have I bought into an open ended credit line from which I can never escape? Can someone enlighten me - what exactly are GS doing to 'fix' liquidity (apart from selling off their loan book and walking away) if they are not accepting new investment? See their previous update email which went into further detail about the potential avenues available and where there were difficulties in this regard. Also, they would only 'walk away' if the whole loanbook were sold, and that seems unlikely.
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alender
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Post by alender on May 21, 2020 20:15:17 GMT
Today I received an email from GS which apart from promising a higher interest rate (really?), seemed to be more around their commitment to keeping a credit line for their borrowers than returning capital to their investors. Have I bought into an open ended credit line from which I can never escape? Can someone enlighten me - what exactly are GS doing to 'fix' liquidity (apart from selling off their loan book and walking away) if they are not accepting new investment? Unfortunately there is nothing GS can do except sell some or all of the loan book to get the liquidity currently required unless they can get substantial institutional support. As Chris1200 has more or less coved in his posts and information from GS they have not planned for this event. Due to the rules of the Liquidity Event they cannot pay out any money during this period, if it is returned to normal times GS cannot change to rules to restrict capital repayments for 14 days after returning to normal conditions. During this time almost half the funds could/would be requested for withdrawal but there is nowhere near enough liquid funds to cover this. Also if there are partial sales of the loan book it is highly likely the best quality loans will be sold leaving the lower quality loans for GS lenders. I really hope GS can find a way round the current T&Cs to allow interest and repayments to be restricted at the start of normal times, the other option could be a resolution event which I believe will be worse for lenders.
This is a looks like a problem created by GS not planning for a run on the platform, it will be a real shame if it turns out an otherwise financially secure platform (future will tell if loan book is fine) is brought down but insufficient planning.
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Post by garreh on May 21, 2020 20:42:59 GMT
Today I received an email from GS which apart from promising a higher interest rate (really?), seemed to be more around their commitment to keeping a credit line for their borrowers than returning capital to their investors. Have I bought into an open ended credit line from which I can never escape? Can someone enlighten me - what exactly are GS doing to 'fix' liquidity (apart from selling off their loan book and walking away) if they are not accepting new investment? I really hope GS can find a way round the current T&Cs to allow interest and repayments to be restricted at the start of normal times, the other option could be a resolution event which I believe will be worse for lenders. They did mention about limiting withdrawals around 2 weeks ago, but that was merely a response to the many suggestions they've been receiving about it. I'm pretty skeptical at this point they have any intention of limiting withdrawals/implementing a queued system - the impression I got from their most recent communication is that they are mostly putting all their eggs in one basket by primarily exploring selling all or part of the loan book. As you mentioned, selling off the loan book would likely be only attractive to the best loans and leave the bad loans for rest of investors. It's just so unfortunate they are bound by their very inflexible terms which may ultimately harm investors. On a personal level, I would much rather lock my money up for longer without a haircut to capital than wind things down quickly as possible with a haircut. But that's not a choice I can make, even if the majority of investors were given a vote for such a scenario they would still likely be bound by their terms. 😐 Maybe I'm mistaken and they can find a way to do it though.
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Post by bikeman on May 22, 2020 9:16:50 GMT
I really hope GS can find a way round the current T&Cs to allow interest and repayments to be restricted at the start of normal times, the other option could be a resolution event which I believe will be worse for lenders. They did mention about limiting withdrawals around 2 weeks ago, but that was merely a response to the many suggestions they've been receiving about it. I'm pretty skeptical at this point they have any intention of limiting withdrawals/implementing a queued system - the impression I got from their most recent communication is that they are mostly putting all their eggs in one basket by primarily exploring selling all or part of the loan book. As you mentioned, selling off the loan book would likely be only attractive to the best loans and leave the bad loans for rest of investors. It's just so unfortunate they are bound by their very inflexible terms which may ultimately harm investors. On a personal level, I would much rather lock my money up for longer without a haircut to capital than wind things down quickly as possible with a haircut. But that's not a choice I can make, even if the majority of investors were given a vote for such a scenario they would still likely be bound by their terms. 😐 Maybe I'm mistaken and they can find a way to do it though. Sounds like this is a problem of their own making - an unforeseen event not allowed for - calls into question their competence? I really don't understand why they are being so inflexible: surely they can chase defaults? Offer payment holidays? Maybe even call in the loans? If these are rolling 30 day loans why are defaulters still being lent to? Why aren't payments received being used to help liquidity?T&Cs aren't cast in stone, they can be changed and challenged if unfair. Even if this was the case, why close to new investments? There's always those ready to take on riskier investments. By closing off new investments they caused this problem themselves. It's as if they want to preserve their customer base at all costs and  the investors. There's a conflict of interest here and the inflexible t&cs are just an excuse to hide behind.
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chris1200
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Post by chris1200 on May 22, 2020 10:28:18 GMT
Sounds like this is a problem of their own making - an unforeseen event not allowed for - calls into question their competence? I really don't understand why they are being so inflexible: surely they can chase defaults? Offer payment holidays? Maybe even call in the loans? If these are rolling 30 day loans why are defaulters still being lent to? Why aren't payments received being used to help liquidity?T&Cs aren't cast in stone, they can be changed and challenged if unfair. Even if this was the case, why close to new investments? There's always those ready to take on riskier investments. By closing off new investments they caused this problem themselves. It's as if they want to preserve their customer base at all costs and the investors. There's a conflict of interest here and the inflexible t&cs are just an excuse to hide behind. 1) They are doing all the things you mention - but they're not especially relevant here. The LE hasn't been caused by particular problems with the loanbook; it's been caused by all of us freaking out and wanting to withdraw our money because of the global economic situation. 2) These are only rolling 30 days loans from our perspective, in practice. The borrowers don't have to repay every month, and then get the money back. Also, who are the defaulters you think are being lent to? Again, this situation hasn't been caused by defaults... Interest payments and re-financing are helping to increase the cash buffer (this has been discussed countless times in this thread); but that doesn't help us much if we all try to withdraw all our money. 3) Yes T&C can be challenged if unfair from the consumer's perspective. But how would that work here? What do you think is 'unfair' in them that we could challenge that would be helpful? 4) As has been explained before (both on this thread and by GS in their update), there would almost certainly be significant regulatory issues with taking on new investments while the platform is essentially shut down. Even if it were possible, a whole new set of T&C would need to be drafted for these lenders and they would likely need to be offered far higher interest rates to throw their money into a locked box like this. 5) I think it's pretty clear they want to help both their borrowers and their investors. Both are crucial for them to be able to continue to operate. What is the conflict of interest? As I've said many times before, there is one essential thing that GS overlooked: requiring liquidity for withdrawals in its T&C. If they had included this, the LE would never have needed to have been called. And without it it can't be solved.
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We've not heard a further peep about a solution and time is running out to avoid a Resolution Event. Sadly, my loans also won't be coming up for rollover around the time the RE is called (if it's exactly 90 days after the LE was called - maybe it won't be?) so it's unlikely I'll benefit from the cash buffer that's built up.
I'm very sorry to have suspected it - perhaps I'm just far too jaded and pessimistic regarding the internet these days...
the investors. There's a conflict of interest here and the inflexible t&cs are just an excuse to hide behind.