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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 12:48:12 GMT
premiumbondsprizes.com/detailed#10000For £10,000 the median is 2.25% The median will be what the largest number of people get in this case with £10,000 £225 pa but you may just get lucky and get one of those big wins. That's actually the mode. The prize won by the largest number of people is known in statistics as the mode, while the median is the prize level where half the people win less and half win more. Interesting calculator, thanks for posting.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 12:54:58 GMT
The way to look at premium bonds is your capital is 100% safe but you are gambering your interest. www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/premium-bonds/Premium Bond prize rate to rise from 2.2% to 3% in JanuaryAlong with some other useful information However while the rate of wins may be 3% the average investor will get less as this is skewed by the large wins so in stats terms it is the average vs the median. take a look at the calculator and put in your investment premiumbondsprizes.com/detailed#10000For £10,000 the median is 2.25% The median will be what the largest number of people get in this case with £10,000 £225 pa but you may just get lucky and get one of those big wins. 3% tax free seems a good rate for taxpayers especially those with 40% and above, also may keep you from going up a band and lose child benefits etc. Another benefit is you don't have to put this on the Self Assessment so one less thing to keep track off. No change to the number of small prizes, but:
there will more than three times as many prizes between £5,000 and £100,000 available.
Sadly not the case. Since the number of higher level prizes is increasing significantly, while the odds of winning a prize remain the same, something has to give. In this case it's the number of small prizes. The number of £25 prizes will reduce by 8-900,000.
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p2pfan
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Post by p2pfan on Dec 17, 2022 13:01:04 GMT
The way to look at premium bonds is your capital is 100% safe but you are gambering your interest. www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/premium-bonds/Premium Bond prize rate to rise from 2.2% to 3% in JanuaryAlong with some other useful information However while the rate of wins may be 3% the average investor will get less as this is skewed by the large wins so in stats terms it is the average vs the median. take a look at the calculator and put in your investment premiumbondsprizes.com/detailed#10000For £10,000 the median is 2.25% The median will be what the largest number of people get in this case with £10,000 £225 pa but you may just get lucky and get one of those big wins. 3% tax free seems a good rate for taxpayers especially those with 40% and above, also may keep you from going up a band and lose child benefits etc. Another benefit is you don't have to put this on the Self Assessment so one less thing to keep track off. No change to the number of small prizes, but:
there will more than three times as many prizes between £5,000 and £100,000 available.
You're right in that the number of small prizes will be similar, but the value of the smaller prizes will be higher i.e. there will be more £50 and £100 prizes to replace the number of £25 prizes: "There's also a considerable change to the distribution of smaller prizes – it's estimated that the number of £50 and £100 prizes will both rise by nearly 400,000 each, though this is mostly offset by the number of £25 prizes falling by around 900,000." Therefore, most of us will be quids in. I would have preferred more increase in £25 prizes rather than £100k and £50k ones ("it's estimated that the number of £100,000 prizes will triple from 18 to 56, the number of £50,000 prizes will rise from 36 to 112"), which hardly any of us are likely to win, but I'm aware that most punters/savers in these Premium Bonds don't think logically so the increase in higher value prizes will get them salivating.
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alender
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Post by alender on Dec 17, 2022 13:10:13 GMT
premiumbondsprizes.com/detailed#10000For £10,000 the median is 2.25% The median will be what the largest number of people get in this case with £10,000 £225 pa but you may just get lucky and get one of those big wins. That's actually the mode. The prize won by the largest number of people is known in statistics as the mode, while the median is the prize level where half the people win less and half win more. Interesting calculator, thanks for posting. Thanks for the info you are correct many years since I did stats and now getting my terms mixed up even at the basic level. The point I was trying to make is although the (new) rate is 3% the vast majority of people will get a bit less than 3% on average due the skewing caused by a few high prizes.
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alender
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Post by alender on Dec 17, 2022 13:25:08 GMT
No change to the number of small prizes, but:
there will more than three times as many prizes between £5,000 and £100,000 available.
You're right in that the number of small prizes will be similar, but the value of the smaller prizes will be higher i.e. there will be more £50 and £100 prizes to replace the number of £25 prizes: "There's also a considerable change to the distribution of smaller prizes – it's estimated that the number of £50 and £100 prizes will both rise by nearly 400,000 each, though this is mostly offset by the number of £25 prizes falling by around 900,000." Therefore, most of us will be quids in. I would have preferred more increase in £25 prizes rather than £100k and £50k ones ("it's estimated that the number of £100,000 prizes will triple from 18 to 56, the number of £50,000 prizes will rise from 36 to 112"), which hardly any of us are likely to win, but I'm aware that most punters/savers in these Premium Bonds don't think logically so the increase in higher value prizes will get them salivating. When these prizes are set there is a balance struck by having some very high prizes so this is covered in the media and encourage people to buy these in the hope of fulfilling a dream (gambling) and those who want a regular tax free income (investing). If too many high prizes a lot of people get nothing and walk away feeling unlucky and go elsewhere as can been seen on this board. The problem is as you say for punters/gamblers they often lack logic, so many people playing the lottery for years with the same numbers and losing money say they can't give up now otherwise they have lost all of their past bets and if theses numbers have not come up in the past they believe it increase the chances of coming up in the future. I don't play the lottery but my only advice to those that do is chose the least popular numbers so less chance of sharing a big win i.e 13, numbers higher than 31 as people love to use birthdays. I like everyone would like to dream of the big win but like you I am more realistic and prefer more money in smaller prizes so I get a better return with less chance of the big win, for me this is more about investing tax free than gambling. The one thing that is never mentioned in the stats is the loss income before you go into the first draw so check out the time of month you invest so you have the least time the money is sitting around waiting for the first draw.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 13:32:20 GMT
That's actually the mode. The prize won by the largest number of people is known in statistics as the mode, while the median is the prize level where half the people win less and half win more. Interesting calculator, thanks for posting. Thanks for the info you are correct many years since I did stats and now getting my terms mixed up even at the basic level. The point I was trying to make is although the (new) rate is 3% the vast majority of people will get a bit less than 3% on average due the skewing caused by a few high prizes. Me too! For a large investment, say £10k or above, as an easy rule of thumb I just deduct 10% of the interest rate to give my expected return, to allow for that skewing. That tallies pretty much with the 'trimmed mean' given in the calculator.
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Post by Ace on Dec 17, 2022 14:17:12 GMT
Thanks for the info you are correct many years since I did stats and now getting my terms mixed up even at the basic level. The point I was trying to make is although the (new) rate is 3% the vast majority of people will get a bit less than 3% on average due the skewing caused by a few high prizes. Me too! For a large investment, say £10k or above, as an easy rule of thumb I just deduct 10% of the interest rate to give my expected return, to allow for that skewing. That tallies pretty much with the 'trimmed mean' given in the calculator. 10% was a good rule-of-thumb prior to the latest increase, but it's more like 20% now. This is because the total of the middle and higher tier prizes used to be 10% of the prize fund (5% in each tier), but it's now 10% in each of those tiers, so 20% total. EDIT: This 20% theory is discredited in the posts below. The reason is that with 20% of the prize fund in middle and higher tier prizes it's no longer valid to assume the the average investor won't win any of those prizes.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 17, 2022 17:21:58 GMT
Sadly not the case. Since the number of higher level prizes is increasing significantly, while the odds of winning a prize remain the same, something has to give. In this case it's the number of small prizes. The number of £25 prizes will reduce by 8-900,000. It depends on what you describe as small.
If you look at the number of £25, £50 & £100 prizes (which might reasonably described as small), the cummulative number is virtually unchanged at 4.95m. Either way I'm looking forward to a bumper new years win.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 17:40:10 GMT
Me too! For a large investment, say £10k or above, as an easy rule of thumb I just deduct 10% of the interest rate to give my expected return, to allow for that skewing. That tallies pretty much with the 'trimmed mean' given in the calculator. 10% was a good rule-of-thumb prior to the latest increase, but it's more like 20% now. This is because the total of the middle and higher tier prizes used to be 10% of the prize fund (5% in each tier), but it's now 10% in each of those tiers, so 20% total. Interesting, because this isn't how the guy who designed that calculator above sees it. Taking a £30,000 holding, he discards (claims to, I haven't checked) the outlying top and bottom 1% of prizes, resulting in his 'trimmed mean' of 2.7% - exactly 10% off NSI's rate. He regards that as the expected return on £30k (hover over the question mark for his explanation). I think I prefer your analysis, at least for a discrete year or less. Having said that, the number of mid-tier prizes has increased from 1/3rd of a percent to 1% of the total number of prizes. So we should be seeing far more £500 and even £1000 wins creeping in now... Over the longer term, I think knocking off 20% will turn out to be too punitive. The true figure is likely to be somewhere between the two of course, and it will be interesting to check back after a few months.
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 17:48:01 GMT
Sadly not the case. Since the number of higher level prizes is increasing significantly, while the odds of winning a prize remain the same, something has to give. In this case it's the number of small prizes. The number of £25 prizes will reduce by 8-900,000. It depends on what you describe as small.
If you look at the number of £25, £50 & £100 prizes (which might reasonably described as small), the cummulative number is virtually unchanged at 4.95m. Either way I'm looking forward to a bumper new years win.
Sorry, it was a mix-up in terminology. You were referring to the "Lower Value" tier collectively as the small prizes, whereas I took small prizes to mean specifically the £25 prize. That's because in the last couple of years ALL my prizes have been £25, meaning that anything above that I would consider as (a) large and (b) a miracle!
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 18:33:54 GMT
Doing these analyses isn't made any easier when you realise - NS&I can't add up, and
- Martin Lewis is using completely different figures for the Dec '22 draw
NS&I's total number of prizes doesn't equal their column sum - their figure of 4,992k is out by a mere 2,000 prizes! I suspect they've published the wrong figure for the number of £50 prizes paid out. This isn't the first time they've screwed up and I'm convinced they have the same dimwit listing my prizes each month... Martin claims a total of 4,977k prizes - for the same month . His column sum adds up correctly at least, but his individual figures per prize band don't match those published by NS&I and nor does his total. Other than that, everything's fine and things are looking up.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Dec 17, 2022 18:38:43 GMT
Doing these analyses isn't made any easier when you realise - NS&I can't add up, and
- Martin Lewis is using completely different figures for the Dec '22 draw
NS&I's total number of prizes doesn't equal their column sum - their figure of 4,992k is out by a mere 2,000 prizes! I suspect they've published the wrong figure for the number of £50 prizes paid out. This isn't the first time they've screwed up and I'm convinced they have the same dimwit listing my prizes each month... Martin claims a total of 4,977k prizes - for the same month . His column sum adds up correctly at least, but his individual figures per prize band don't match those published by NS&I and nor does his total. Other than that, everything's fine and things are looking up. Let me guess? Fujitsu ICL run the hardware and software, and Richard Pryor runs the programme?
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Post by Ace on Dec 17, 2022 18:54:34 GMT
10% was a good rule-of-thumb prior to the latest increase, but it's more like 20% now. This is because the total of the middle and higher tier prizes used to be 10% of the prize fund (5% in each tier), but it's now 10% in each of those tiers, so 20% total. Interesting, because this isn't how the guy who designed that calculator above sees it. Taking a £30,000 holding, he discards (claims to, I haven't checked) the outlying top and bottom 1% of prizes, resulting in his 'trimmed mean' of 2.7% - exactly 10% off NSI's rate. He regards that as the expected return on £30k (hover over the question mark for his explanation). I think I prefer your analysis, at least for a discrete year or less. Having said that, the number of mid-tier prizes has increased from 1/3rd of a percent to 1% of the total number of prizes. So we should be seeing far more £500 and even £1000 wins creeping in now... Over the longer term, I think knocking off 20% will turn out to be too punitive. The true figure is likely to be somewhere between the two of course, and it will be interesting to check back after a few months. Your right, both methods of estimation are far from perfect. In reality the average return is likely to be a bit higher than simply assuming you never win any middle or higher tier prizes. I agree that knocking off 20% of the prize rate is likely to be an under estimate. Something just over 2.6% is probably about right. I can't see any justification for picking 1% as the number of outliers to ignore. However, it just so happens that using 1% means that all middle and higher tier prizes are rejected in both the pre and post January prize funds. Here's another (imperfect, but possibly slightly better) way of estimating the likely average return from the new prizefund: 52.50% ( 2,621,112 / 4,992,880 * 100 ) of the prizes will be £25. 23.25% ( 1,160,883 / 4,992,880 * 100 ) of the prizes will be £50. 23.25% ( 1,160,883 / 4,992,880 * 100 ) of the prizes will be £100. 1% (100% - 52.50% - 23.25% - 23.25% ) of the prizes will be higher than £100. Someone with the max invested (£50,000) with average luck would expect to win 25 prizes per year ( 50,000 / 24,000 * 12 ). 13.125 (25 * 52.50%) of those prizes will most likely be £25. I.e. £328.125 (13.125 * £25). 5.8125 (25 * 23.25%) of those prizes will most likely be £50. I.e. £290.625 (5.8125 * £50). 5.8125 (25 * 23.25%) of those prizes will most likely be £100. I.e. £581.25 (5.8125 * £100). 0.25 (25 * 1%) of those prizes will most likely be > £100. So, each year, with average luck, someone with the max invested would expect to win £1,200 (£328.125 + £290.625 + £581.25) = 2.4% plus one higher value prize every 4 years. If we assume that the higher value prize is the most likely £500, then that adds an average £125 per year, which raises the total to £1,325 per year, or 2.65%.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Dec 17, 2022 18:55:28 GMT
Doing these analyses isn't made any easier when you realise - NS&I can't add up, and
- Martin Lewis is using completely different figures for the Dec '22 draw
NS&I's total number of prizes doesn't equal their column sum - their figure of 4,992k is out by a mere 2,000 prizes! I suspect they've published the wrong figure for the number of £50 prizes paid out. This isn't the first time they've screwed up and I'm convinced they have the same dimwit listing my prizes each month... Martin claims a total of 4,977k prizes - for the same month . His column sum adds up correctly at least, but his individual figures per prize band don't match those published by NS&I and nor does his total. Other than that, everything's fine and things are looking up. You're taking this far too seriously. Just sit back and wait for the spondulicks to come rolling in in a couple of weeks time.
I'm already planning what to do with mine
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Post by bernythedolt on Dec 17, 2022 18:59:45 GMT
Doing these analyses isn't made any easier when you realise - NS&I can't add up, and
- Martin Lewis is using completely different figures for the Dec '22 draw
NS&I's total number of prizes doesn't equal their column sum - their figure of 4,992k is out by a mere 2,000 prizes! I suspect they've published the wrong figure for the number of £50 prizes paid out. This isn't the first time they've screwed up and I'm convinced they have the same dimwit listing my prizes each month... Martin claims a total of 4,977k prizes - for the same month . His column sum adds up correctly at least, but his individual figures per prize band don't match those published by NS&I and nor does his total. Other than that, everything's fine and things are looking up. Let me guess? Fujitsu ICL run the hardware and software, and Richard Pryor runs the programme? Undoubtedly there's a comedian somewhere in the works, but Fujitsu is, to me, beyond the pale and (allegedly) capable of one hell of a lot worse than this mere bagatelle. Their (alleged) role in the Post Office debacle was/is appalling.
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