SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 2, 2020 15:45:05 GMT
For interest only, as I'm struggling to answer the question for myself. Assume there is no scope for short-term flipping (ie. you'd be buying at what you regard to be "fair value" currently).
NB. If you've no genuine interest in buying, please don't skew the poll; either ignore it or tick the "Not at any discount" answer.
Feel free to explain your logic below!
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dead-money
Rocket to the Moon
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Post by dead-money on May 2, 2020 16:12:47 GMT
54 Loans in Default - Value £50M 27 Loans suspended - £26M
518 Loans tradable - £341M So 13% zero value, 6% questionable value, 81% indeterminate value
Average security 65% LTV according to AC Fire Sale value of security 50% or less ?
Unknown Cash held in reserve / retention accounts / provision funds
Really no one has sufficient information to determine a reliable fair value. So Value of Access accounts 50% of par ?
Dutch Auction anyone?
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on May 2, 2020 16:15:12 GMT
An interesting question, albeit a pale imitation of the real poll that will open when the market does!
One factor that's hard to capture here is the size of ones investment: I might be prepared to take a much riskier bet (buy at small discounts) with a small (for me) amount of money, but insist on bigger discounts for significant (to me) sums.
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Post by Harland Kearney on May 2, 2020 16:22:20 GMT
Interesting, technically, it will only take a few big panic selling whales to put up massive discount offerings at first. I think many holders who are not panicing but are eager to reduce or exit in the coming months would not settle for 25%+ discount. More likely PAR-10%. All depends on the type of AA holders we have. I find it crazy to thing anybody would sell at 25%+ loss, but there is also dumb money on the stock market!
Beats administration is the only defence.
Also, something I've noticed with polls like these, or any type of survey in general. What people think they will do is usally quite diffrent to what they actually do when push comes to shove. Be that selling lower or higher than orginally thought. It is alot like when people invest they think they understand their appitate for risk but sometimes find that they over-estimated or under-estimated themselves & panic. That will likely come to play if people will really click that button to reduce 25% of their investment capital on a investment which is currently still paying interest and hasn't reduce in capital value as of yet.
I don't want to say, but currently investors are still adding money into the AA's albiet very small (small enough to not be impactful to the current queue). I have a feeling, there will be many investors who do not fully understand the risks of the AA's who will be happy to buy into the AA's at discount betweent 5-10%. Seeing that instant increase in total balance. We'll see, think supply will still be very tricky and confusing.
Many of the people who will be selling on the AA market may not have any prior XP of MLA trading and this may increase a tendency to panic sell and impatience.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on May 2, 2020 16:26:57 GMT
An interesting question, albeit a pale imitation of the real poll that will open when the market does! Indeed. The biggest discount currently offered on a trade-able MLA loan is 11%, suggesting anything that was discounted deeper than that has been taken up. But the QAA isn't the same as any single MLA loan, owing parts of very many of them (the good and the 'less good') but also parts of defaulted loans, offset to a greater or lesser extent by the PF. And it will never pay more than 4%-odd, but may be considered lower risk again under this new SM structure than buying MLA loans directly (assuming one would be willing to discount to sell) since any one loan default shouldn't change things much.
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dead-money
Rocket to the Moon
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Post by dead-money on May 2, 2020 16:38:45 GMT
Last we heard the provision fund was a tenth of the defaulted loans, so no comfort there.
Assuming all cash received from borrowers is required to service monthly interest, provide further loan tranches, etc. ; so par withdrawals will continue to be a trickle.
Until institutional money, CBIL or other, comes to the rescue and normal markets return; new loans won't start, target interest rates won't return and payouts will be protracted.
For the moment, retail investors are left with a game of parcel the parcel, until the last player finds all the sweets are gone and they are left with a paper bag of flaming dog poo.
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gmitz
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Post by gmitz on May 2, 2020 16:50:54 GMT
Last we heard the provision fund was a tenth of the defaulted loans, so no comfort there.
Assuming all cash received from borrowers is required to service monthly interest, provide further loan tranches, etc. ; so par withdrawals will continue to be a trickle.
Until institutional money, CBIL or other, comes to the rescue and normal markets return; new loans won't start, target interest rates won't return and payouts will be protracted.
For the moment, retail investors are left with a game of parcel the parcel, until the last player finds all the sweets are gone and they are left with a paper bag of flaming dog poo.
It's called a "Ponzi Scheme".
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Post by Harland Kearney on May 2, 2020 16:52:46 GMT
Last we heard the provision fund was a tenth of the defaulted loans, so no comfort there.
Assuming all cash received from borrowers is required to service monthly interest, provide further loan tranches, etc. ; so par withdrawals will continue to be a trickle.
Until institutional money, CBIL or other, comes to the rescue and normal markets return; new loans won't start, target interest rates won't return and payouts will be protracted.
For the moment, retail investors are left with a game of parcel the parcel, until the last player finds all the sweets are gone and they are left with a paper bag of flaming dog poo.
It's called a "Ponzi Scheme". Very inaccurate term. It's called Global Recession. "Investor" panic!
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gmitz
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Post by gmitz on May 2, 2020 17:00:12 GMT
It's called a "Ponzi Scheme". Very inaccurate term. It's called Global Recession. "Investor" panic! Really? Would buy my AA holdings in defaulted loans among the good ones, at discount of course? That's exactly what will happen if you buy someone else's AA holdings, discounted or not.
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dave4
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Cynical is a hobby not a lifestyle
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Post by dave4 on May 2, 2020 17:00:39 GMT
In 2 minds. Today at this time, considering everything i think i know. (whatever that may be). I would be very tempted to buy at over 25%. Would sell all at only 8% discount max. What this says about confidence in AC i have no idea. Also IF i choose to buy then it would be sizeable.
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Post by johnny on May 2, 2020 17:01:43 GMT
It's called a "Ponzi Scheme". Very inaccurate term. It's called Global Recession. "Investor" panic! Yep, as soon as the Winchester reopens I'm off for a pint and waiting for it to all blow over.
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Post by Harland Kearney on May 2, 2020 17:03:48 GMT
Very inaccurate term. It's called Global Recession. "Investor" panic! Really? Would buy my AA holdings in defaulted loans among the good ones, at discount of course? That's exactly what will happen if you buy someone else's AA holdings, discounted or not. What does that have to do with you calling it a Ponzi? You shouldn't use terms like that lightly, no insult intended. Yes, but the person you qouted did not call it a ponzi. As of right now with no new loans being under written its a zero number game that eventually it will end that way. However, that is only IF AC stopped under writing loans for life. At that point it would go into Administration. Generally ponzi involve false asset security/marketing ect ect. It just isnt' the same thing, let alone illegal.
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Post by Harland Kearney on May 2, 2020 17:06:47 GMT
In 2 minds. Today at this time, considering everything i think i know. (whatever that may be). I would be very tempted to buy at over 25%. Would sell all at only 8% discount max. What this says about confidence in AC i have no idea. It says we'll make a trader of you yet!
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on May 2, 2020 17:07:44 GMT
I filled in 5.5%-10%, mainly because it was looking unloved and lonely.
Also, this is the sort of range I would guess the QAA would actually settle at after the first few days. Beyond a few panicky initial movements perhaps, I'd be surprised to see over 15% (and the idea of 50% is ridiculous IMV frankly).
A couple of reasons:
1) In the long term, I don't see why UK property should necessarily be massively harmed. The GFC yielded a small dent in property before it relentlessly marched upwards again. This recession so far is very sector specific. Airlines are harmed, restaurants are harmed, cinemas are harmed but people still need places to live. Interest rates are at record lows, and in some cases discretionary spending is going to be directed away from leisure pursuits and more into making comfy pads (or indeed investing in comfy pads for others to live in).
2) Beyond very distressed individual loans, we don't typically see huge discounts on P2P SM's. The QAA has a broad range of projects and a provision fund to boot. This isn't dodgy Dave's big theoretical block of flats that look suspiciously like a car park valued at £5m.
If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if we move into the 0-5% bracket after a while.
I think to see discounts consistently more than 10% we'd have to see further big signs of economic distress caused by a worsening of the health situation (2nd wave, mutations etc), coupled with more big stock market lurches and/or specific significant concerns over platform viability.
I wouldn't be so foolish as to rule any of the above out, but without those conditions I don't imagine a big firesale. Despite the endless moaning, people really don't like crystallising big losses. I'll make my bet that when push comes to shove, people by and large prefer to carp from the sidelines but will still hold on in hope of seeing all or damn near all of their money back.
They didn't understand what they were getting into in the first place, so in this scenario the opportunity to have their cake I suspect will only prompt the response "Why would I? There's a slice missing!"
edit: Oop, I slightly answered the wrong question. Although this is where I would place my guess at the QAA settling, it's not the price I would buy at. I typically find SM values in most scenarios not great value. I would certainly consider buying a chunk at 15% though, and a big chunk at 25%!
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gmitz
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Post by gmitz on May 2, 2020 17:20:06 GMT
I see a pattern here. Every time AC comes alone with a new products, they close the old ones together with my money in bed loans, effectively cleansing their portfolio. I sense, the same will happen to the Access Accounts as well with this new feature because let's face it, the Access Accounts are just rebranded GBBA1,2, and the rest.
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