ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on May 19, 2020 14:15:10 GMT
I see nothing to stop CBILS being used to pay down existing loans on AC or even refinance them entirely. I would assume that as the risk to the lender is lower then CBILS may attract lower interest rates and the opportunity to restructure debt. Obviously going to depend on a case by case basis and borrowers who need the loan to support ongoing costs like rent, wages are less likely to be able to use CBILS to improve debt position. Quite possible that AC wont require the change in security priorities that third party lenders are seeking.
So currently I think the premise that there is no benefit to us is unproven.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 19, 2020 14:25:13 GMT
I see nothing to stop CBILS being used to pay down existing loans on AC or even refinance them entirely. I would assume that as the risk to the lender is lower then CBILS may attract lower interest rates and the opportunity to restructure debt. Obviously going to depend on a case by case basis and borrowers who need the loan to support ongoing costs like rent, wages are less likely to be able to use CBILS to improve debt position. Quite possible that AC wont require the change in security priorities that third party lenders are seeking. So currently I think the premise that there is no benefit to us is unproven. I'm struggling to understand this CBILS malarkey.
Who bears the risk if a loan goes t*ts up? For example if CBILS is used to fund tranches of development loans that retail investors won't touch with a bargepole, who picks up the tab if it all goes wrong and the partly finished development can't be sold for enough to cover the various loans that have been financing it?
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,315
Likes: 11,523
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Post by ilmoro on May 19, 2020 14:41:53 GMT
I see nothing to stop CBILS being used to pay down existing loans on AC or even refinance them entirely. I would assume that as the risk to the lender is lower then CBILS may attract lower interest rates and the opportunity to restructure debt. Obviously going to depend on a case by case basis and borrowers who need the loan to support ongoing costs like rent, wages are less likely to be able to use CBILS to improve debt position. Quite possible that AC wont require the change in security priorities that third party lenders are seeking. So currently I think the premise that there is no benefit to us is unproven. I'm struggling to understand this CBILS malarkey.
Who bears the risk if a loan goes t*ts up? For example if CBILS is used to fund tranches of development loans that retail investors won't touch with a bargepole, who picks up the tab if it all goes wrong and the partly finished development can't be sold for enough to cover the various loans that have been financing it?
Its just a normal loan but with the government taking 80% first loss for that loan but otherwise it depends on where it fits in the total security package.
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agent69
Member of DD Central
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Post by agent69 on May 19, 2020 15:02:05 GMT
I'm struggling to understand this CBILS malarkey.
Who bears the risk if a loan goes t*ts up? For example if CBILS is used to fund tranches of development loans that retail investors won't touch with a bargepole, who picks up the tab if it all goes wrong and the partly finished development can't be sold for enough to cover the various loans that have been financing it?
Its just a normal loan but with the government taking 80% first loss for that loan but otherwise it depends on where it fits in the total security package. So if AC have the final tranche of a development loan to fill, what pressure is there on AC to ensure there is a realistic chance of the development completing and the loans repaying? It looks like AC are taking zero risk and the tax payer takes 80% of the risk for little (if any) reward.
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Post by stuartassetzcapital on May 19, 2020 16:03:23 GMT
CBILS loans will be a mix of ; - entirely new loans in addition to the current loan book
- some future funding of existing loans
- some limited refinancing of existing loans where appropriate
Funding is to be provided by institutional lenders of various types. We are most certainly not taking 'no risk' and will have financial interest, 'skin in the game', in all these loans. All loans have to pass a stringent credit process and are only 80% protected - this is not the simpler BBLS scheme with a 100% loss guarantee. I hope that helps.
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ian
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Post by ian on May 19, 2020 18:39:00 GMT
CBILS loans will be a mix of ; - entirely new loans in addition to the current loan book
- some future funding of existing loans
- some limited refinancing of existing loans where appropriate
Funding is to be provided by institutional lenders of various types. We are most certainly not taking 'no risk' and will have financial interest, 'skin in the game', in all these loans. All loans have to pass a stringent credit process and are only 80% protected - this is not the simpler BBLS scheme with a 100% loss guarantee. I hope that helps. Will this mean redeemed capital in the access accounts will now be returned to lenders rather than be invested in tranches which investors do not wish to participate in?
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Post by oppsididitagain on May 19, 2020 18:54:00 GMT
I see nothing to stop CBILS being used to pay down existing loans on AC or even refinance them entirely. I would assume that as the risk to the lender is lower then CBILS may attract lower interest rates and the opportunity to restructure debt. Obviously going to depend on a case by case basis and borrowers who need the loan to support ongoing costs like rent, wages are less likely to be able to use CBILS to improve debt position. Quite possible that AC wont require the change in security priorities that third party lenders are seeking. So currently I think the premise that there is no benefit to us is unproven. 1. There is nothing to stop CBILS to pay down existing loans - thats my point , they aren't being used for that. They should be forced to repay a % of the AC loan 2. Its not AC that requires the change in security priorities, its the 3rd party that wants us demoted (so to speak) its the new lender AKA bank who wants it . 3. CBILS are very low interest rate for the 1st year.. so it would make sense to pay off the AC loan, but thats not happening. So our liquidity doesn't change. The benefit is to AC, the platform stability etc
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Post by oppsididitagain on May 19, 2020 19:15:49 GMT
CBILS loans will be a mix of ; - entirely new loans in addition to the current loan book
- some future funding of existing loans
- some limited refinancing of existing loans where appropriate
Funding is to be provided by institutional lenders of various types. We are most certainly not taking 'no risk' and will have financial interest, 'skin in the game', in all these loans. All loans have to pass a stringent credit process and are only 80% protected - this is not the simpler BBLS scheme with a 100% loss guarantee. I hope that helps. Thanks for replying, its appreciated that you engage with us. Unfortunately I don't see how this will benefit the retail investors. Yes it may make the platform more stable, however we want our money back, you know the money in the quick access account. We also want the original Interest rate you said you would give us. The CBILS loans should be used to free up liquidity , restore the interest rates you said you would pay and help the platform out for the future. Im not sure how the mix of loans is going to do that. Maybe expand on how they will help , rather than just say what they are ? With the limited refinancing of existing loans, I would suggest a stipulation of any refinancing with an external CBILS has an element of repaying the original loan, to free up liquidity etc. Why even ask us to vote on approvals of CBILS loans if our security will change yet no repayments will be made to original loans. Its a NO from me every time until you free up our money.
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ian
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Post by ian on May 19, 2020 21:07:59 GMT
Developers should now have access to CBIL funding at favourable rates. Developers should be directed to take advantage of this new cost effective source of funds. Forbearance should no longer be required by creditworthy borrowers.However .... AC needs borrowers to be in need of funding in order to remain in existence. There is possibly a danger borrowers are refused CBIL funding on favourable terms in order to retain AC income stream.
There’s a clear conflict between AC wanting to income rolling in and mitigating investors risk & liquidating our capital.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,315
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Post by ilmoro on May 19, 2020 21:29:09 GMT
I see nothing to stop CBILS being used to pay down existing loans on AC or even refinance them entirely. I would assume that as the risk to the lender is lower then CBILS may attract lower interest rates and the opportunity to restructure debt. Obviously going to depend on a case by case basis and borrowers who need the loan to support ongoing costs like rent, wages are less likely to be able to use CBILS to improve debt position. Quite possible that AC wont require the change in security priorities that third party lenders are seeking. So currently I think the premise that there is no benefit to us is unproven. 1. There is nothing to stop CBILS to pay down existing loans - thats my point , they aren't being used for that. They should be forced to repay a % of the AC loan 2. Its not AC that requires the change in security priorities, its the 3rd party that wants us demoted (so to speak) its the new lender AKA bank who wants it . 3. CBILS are very low interest rate for the 1st year.. so it would make sense to pay off the AC loan, but thats not happening. So our liquidity doesn't change. The benefit is to AC, the platform stability etc 1. I doubt AC have any power to dictate to 3rd party lenders. I assume in each case outcomings will be taken into consideration but there is no point a borrower using a CBIL to pay down borrowing at the expense of other ongoing costs, the non payment of which result in the business going bust. 2. Yes, so hopefully where AC is the provider it wont be required. 3. As per 1. Borrower & platform stability clearly benefits lenders as well. As I said at the moment to early to tell.
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Post by stuartassetzcapital on May 20, 2020 8:33:19 GMT
Developers should now have access to CBIL funding at favourable rates. Developers should be directed to take advantage of this new cost effective source of funds. Forbearance should no longer be required by creditworthy borrowers.However .... AC needs borrowers to be in need of funding in order to remain in existence. There is possibly a danger borrowers are refused CBIL funding on favourable terms in order to retain AC income stream. There’s a clear conflict between AC wanting to income rolling in and mitigating investors risk & liquidating our capital. I don't know what facts you used to come to this conclusion but it is just plain wrong. Perhaps you could disclose your logic and source as you appear confident in your assertions and it would help others if you could explain as we need facts on this forum not speculation and that is one reason I remain engaged here. We earn similar loan servicing income from both existing retail funded lending and new CBILS lending - there is no conflict there. We will only be doing limited refinancing, if any, of existing AC loans - there are caps and controls on those under CBILS rules. We will however look at existing in flight developments for CBILS where appropriate and where we have funding lines for that purpose. We all want, I sincerely trust, to support creditworthy borrowers through these difficult times and through to exit from their AC loan, and if a development, through to the completion of their construction and sales period required. To not do the latter would result in substantial investor losses as anyone who has experience in the property development market will know already and has been commented on many times on this forum and by us.
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ian
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Post by ian on May 20, 2020 12:09:05 GMT
More than happy to respond. From my own experience Borrowers can now access between £50,000 & £250,000 of funding over 6 years 1st year interest free & with a full capital holiday. Rates going forward are presently significantly below the 3.75% AC pay to lenders. (Those terms may not be afforded to all borrowers). Additional funding is available if required with greater exposure to the borrower.
As you will be aware a borrower can access this from any number of lenders. A current Assetz Capital borrower might borrow from Funding Circle and vica versa.
As AC seem reluctant to ensure Borrowers meet their obligations as regards timely capital and interest payments, ACs present borrowers may be less likely to seek secondary/CBIL funding. Indeed if they do attain CBIL funding given ACs forbearance stance they are less likely to channel this secondary funding towards repayments to AC.
In short - Developers should be directed to take advantage of this cost effective source of funds. Forbearance should no longer be required by creditworthy borrowers. If CBIL funding is not available to borrowers, this clearly is an indication the borrower presents an increased / unacceptable risk. In such circumstances AC might be deemed be negligent in lending further funds or delaying actions to recover any defaul. By continuing to loan to parties unable to access CBIL funding, you expose retail investors to a portfolio of loans which have increased risk.
I would contend the primary reason AC refuse to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital is AC need these funds to continue to loan out, at an ever increasing margin (given you've reduced lenders returns), is purely to keep AC in business. That is not necessary the same acting in the lenders best interests.
Investors are not saying you should pull the plug on existing investments, however your refusal to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital, is compounded by you subsequently investing those funds in new loan tranches; I reiterate, without the investors consent; potentially, in loans which investors do not wish to participate in. These ‘new loans’ clearly expose investors to increased risk, given the significant forecast movement in property markets & general economy, what's more they are probably being advanced to borrowers at levels far exceeding the advertised loan to values, given there appears to have been no reassessment of the net realisable values of projects post lockdown!
PS THANKYOU FOR RESPONDING
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Post by honda2ner on May 20, 2020 15:27:24 GMT
More than happy to respond. From my own experience Borrowers can now access between £50,000 & £250,000 of funding over 6 years 1st year interest free & with a full capital holiday. Rates going forward are presently significantly below the 3.75% AC pay to lenders. (Those terms may not be afforded to all borrowers). Additional funding is available if required with greater exposure to the borrower. As you will be aware a borrower can access this from any number of lenders. A current Assetz Capital borrower might borrow from Funding Circle and vica versa. As AC seem reluctant to ensure Borrowers meet their obligations as regards timely capital and interest payments, ACs present borrowers may be less likely to seek secondary/CBIL funding. Indeed if they do attain CBIL funding given ACs forbearance stance they are less likely to channel this secondary funding towards repayments to AC. In short - Developers should be directed to take advantage of this cost effective source of funds. Forbearance should no longer be required by creditworthy borrowers. If CBIL funding is not available to borrowers, this clearly is an indication the borrower presents an increased / unacceptable risk. In such circumstances AC might be deemed be negligent in lending further funds or delaying actions to recover any defaul. By continuing to loan to parties unable to access CBIL funding, you expose retail investors to a portfolio of loans which have increased risk. I would contend the primary reason AC refuse to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital is AC need these funds to continue to loan out, at an ever increasing margin (given you've reduced lenders returns), is purely to keep AC in business. That is not necessary the same acting in the lenders best interests. Investors are not saying you should pull the plug on existing investments, however your refusal to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital, is compounded by you subsequently investing those funds in new loan tranches; I reiterate, without the investors consent; potentially, in loans which investors do not wish to participate in. These ‘new loans’ clearly expose investors to increased risk, given the significant forecast movement in property markets & general economy, what's more they are probably being advanced to borrowers at levels far exceeding the advertised loan to values, given there appears to have been no reassessment of the net realisable values of projects post lockdown! PS THANKYOU FOR RESPONDING So that would be no sources apart from your own opinion and bias that simply isn't worth responding to. I doubt Stuart will bother. The fact that borrowers still have to pay interest (deferred) on their existing AC loans will push the ones with a positive IQ to pay off the AC loan first and if possible use their CBIL loan to pay off the AC loan as much as the CBILS rules allow. Having a hissy fit just because you spectacularly misunderstood access accounts is no way to influence anyone, the opposite is probably true. AC are more likely to prefer you to never invest with them again as you evidently belong in a FSCS account.
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Post by oppsididitagain on May 20, 2020 18:06:56 GMT
More than happy to respond. From my own experience Borrowers can now access between £50,000 & £250,000 of funding over 6 years 1st year interest free & with a full capital holiday. Rates going forward are presently significantly below the 3.75% AC pay to lenders. (Those terms may not be afforded to all borrowers). Additional funding is available if required with greater exposure to the borrower. As you will be aware a borrower can access this from any number of lenders. A current Assetz Capital borrower might borrow from Funding Circle and vica versa. As AC seem reluctant to ensure Borrowers meet their obligations as regards timely capital and interest payments, ACs present borrowers may be less likely to seek secondary/CBIL funding. Indeed if they do attain CBIL funding given ACs forbearance stance they are less likely to channel this secondary funding towards repayments to AC. In short - Developers should be directed to take advantage of this cost effective source of funds. Forbearance should no longer be required by creditworthy borrowers. If CBIL funding is not available to borrowers, this clearly is an indication the borrower presents an increased / unacceptable risk. In such circumstances AC might be deemed be negligent in lending further funds or delaying actions to recover any defaul. By continuing to loan to parties unable to access CBIL funding, you expose retail investors to a portfolio of loans which have increased risk. I would contend the primary reason AC refuse to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital is AC need these funds to continue to loan out, at an ever increasing margin (given you've reduced lenders returns), is purely to keep AC in business. That is not necessary the same acting in the lenders best interests. Investors are not saying you should pull the plug on existing investments, however your refusal to give Access account holders full access redeemed capital, is compounded by you subsequently investing those funds in new loan tranches; I reiterate, without the investors consent; potentially, in loans which investors do not wish to participate in. These ‘new loans’ clearly expose investors to increased risk, given the significant forecast movement in property markets & general economy, what's more they are probably being advanced to borrowers at levels far exceeding the advertised loan to values, given there appears to have been no reassessment of the net realisable values of projects post lockdown! PS THANKYOU FOR RESPONDING So that would be no sources apart from your own opinion and bias that simply isn't worth responding to. I doubt Stuart will bother. T he fact that borrowers still have to pay interest (deferred) on their existing AC loans will push the ones with a positive IQ to pay off the AC loan first and if possible use their CBIL loan to pay off the AC loan as much as the CBILS rules allow. Having a hissy fit just because you spectacularly misunderstood access accounts is no way to influence anyone, the opposite is probably true. AC are more likely to prefer you to never invest with them again as you evidently belong in a FSCS account. This is why I asked the question in the 1st place. As this is not happening. Why do you think the new CBILS issuers are asking for part of our security ? If they were repaying the AC loans/transferring it to a CBILS then the security wouldn't matter - the new lender would be 1st in line. AC don't want this to happen either, as they lose margin income etc. AC are running a business and will do what is best for them, and use your money to do that. People need to understand what 'the right thing to do' doesn't happen in the real world. Thats why there are so many defaults across the P2P platforms. People should pay off their CC in full at the end of each month but thousands dont.. Some one with a big IQ will just forget about the AC loan, put the demand letters in the bin, after the 3months forbearance AC granted. They have new funding from the Govt - a clean slate.. We are saying AC needs to free up its liquidity and repay the retail investors. Demand that a part of the new funds pays down the AC loans, NOT fund existing new loan tranches. The original question was - how does this benefit the retail investors. Apart from keeping the platform alive, you still think you have hope. You can keep the platform alive for another 5 years, lend another billion Quid via the institutional channels, the facts is - AC will still have your money. The hamster wheel keeps on turning..
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Post by honda2ner on May 21, 2020 10:35:12 GMT
So that would be no sources apart from your own opinion and bias that simply isn't worth responding to. I doubt Stuart will bother. T he fact that borrowers still have to pay interest (deferred) on their existing AC loans will push the ones with a positive IQ to pay off the AC loan first and if possible use their CBIL loan to pay off the AC loan as much as the CBILS rules allow. Having a hissy fit just because you spectacularly misunderstood access accounts is no way to influence anyone, the opposite is probably true. AC are more likely to prefer you to never invest with them again as you evidently belong in a FSCS account. This is why I asked the question in the 1st place. As this is not happening. Why do you think the new CBILS issuers are asking for part of our security ? If they were repaying the AC loans/transferring it to a CBILS then the security wouldn't matter - the new lender would be 1st in line. AC don't want this to happen either, as they lose margin income etc. AC are running a business and will do what is best for them, and use your money to do that. People need to understand what 'the right thing to do' doesn't happen in the real world. Thats why there are so many defaults across the P2P platforms. People should pay off their CC in full at the end of each month but thousands dont.. Some one with a big IQ will just forget about the AC loan, put the demand letters in the bin, after the 3months forbearance AC granted. They have new funding from the Govt - a clean slate.. We are saying AC needs to free up its liquidity and repay the retail investors. Demand that a part of the new funds pays down the AC loans, NOT fund existing new loan tranches. The original question was - how does this benefit the retail investors. Apart from keeping the platform alive, you still think you have hope. You can keep the platform alive for another 5 years, lend another billion Quid via the institutional channels, the facts is - AC will still have your money. The hamster wheel keeps on turning.. CBILS was never intended to help wealthy investors, just imagine the luvvies meltdown on Twitter if it was! CBILS was intended to keep businesses alive and boost the economy by NEW lending, that's it. Expecting CBILS to be a silver bullet to repay investors was powerful desperation and the complete opposite of reality. If it helps borderline borrowers liquidity then great, overall IMO it's a positive as the loss of a bit of security is dwarfed by just one or two borrowers not going into administration. I have plenty of hope as I wasn't silly enough to invest in a black box investment, they have never worked on any platform and probably never will, the MLA is working quite nicely. AC haven't had to make a single change to the MLA as it just works and puts all the risk and reward onto the lender, where it should be. I've lost money, everyone has (or will) but it's entirely my fault and I am grown up enough to accept my losses as just business. AC has never had my money, borrowers have. AC need to hurry up and get the SM working on the AAs, that's the huge problem with the platform, CBILS is just a sideshow.
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