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Post by lingield on May 17, 2020 11:52:32 GMT
wuzimu appeared to be making a broad statement. I think the analysis, broadly speaking, looks sound. I certainly agree that it currently looks unlikely that any funds will be returned by RYI, unless you are fortunate to be at the top end of the queue (say 5% of 30000, ie. the next 1500 - and I think 1500th in the queue is going to be for a long wait, ie. Christmas!).
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r00lish67
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Post by r00lish67 on May 17, 2020 13:06:00 GMT
<snip>
Our borrowers are supposed to be high quality borrowers who could have got a bank loan for their personal loan. We must pray thats true. I have no reason to think it isnt (yet) and certainly I do not think RS loan book can be compared to FC loanbook which some are doing. RS and FC operate in different markets with a very different average loan size.
I noticed the other day that the RS average borrower rate is actually a little higher than I had thought previously. According to RS the 12 month rolling average is 11.3%. That's still not as high as Lending Works (which is roughly 13% over the last year, and is much more comparable with RS than FC in terms of borrower type) but still perhaps doesn't suggest absolutely top drawer borrowers either given the current historically low risk free rate. From the same page I linked to, it's interesting to see the breakdown of that 11.3%: 4% goes to the PF 3% goes to RS in fees And until very recently investors were given the rest, 4.3%. Now, post COVID-19 reductions, it's presumably more like: 6.15% goes to the PF 3% goes to RS in fees 2.15% goes to us. That still doesn't really tell the whole story though, as the 11.3% pre-covid wasn't quite fat enough to hold its 3 components. It was (roughly) another 1% short because defaults were higher than expected. This was being absorbed by the PF cash declining month-by-month (from about £14m 12 months ago to £8m just before COVID struck from memory). So, actually, we had really needed a 5% borrower contribution to the PF all along to ready the ship pre-COVID - not to grow the PF, just to see it not continue to fall. Now, post-COVID, well, who knows. 6.15% seems like quite a modest step from 5% really given the rather dramatic situation. But, as yet our borrower incomes are probably largely being shielded by all of the Government cash being blown about. So I suppose in RS's case it mostly depends how well our fragile borrower cohort emerges from furlough, when it finally ends. I (now) have money with neither, but if I had to choose I'd probably prefer it to be with RS (lent to individuals) than FC (SME's). People may still have money to repay loans by and large, but probably won't be so interested in various SME's for the short-term, for a variety of reasons (mostly boiling down to economic+health concerns).
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wuzimu
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Post by wuzimu on May 17, 2020 13:16:26 GMT
yeah, I don't think ceejay followed my reasoning exactly,,,,
But in the absence of new lenders coming forward / new deposits onto the platform and therefore new lending by RS, I do hope RS management are shedding overheads as fast as possible.
I posted earlier that I don't see the sort of naughtiess at RS, that finished Lendy / FS / Col. But.....
judging by my own Access account, I have about 7% per month returned through interest / amortisation / loan repayments. This is about what would be expected as average loan length in Access ~20 months.
If RS loanbook was £800m early March, with RYI (£40m) and the natural attentuation from amortisation / loan repayments, I estimate the RS loanbook to be circa £650m now and it will be ~£500m somewhere around the start of August if the same trajectory is maintained.
So I do not see the current RS arrangement with staff and offices in central London etc, to be viable going forward.
A big re-structure is essential or they will sleep walk into insolvency.
RS had some good borrower acquisition tech and also high lender support. But I don't see business as normal even if Covid soon passes Because 'Access' products have been shown to be anything but, the pricing of risk very wrong......
Going forward RS is going to have to reboot with the good bits of the business they had. They should shed overhead , move to Coventry office and come up with some new fixed term products - maybe 'issues' with fixed redemption dates and coupon, a bit like Bonds!
Good luck to them, good luck to us.
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on May 17, 2020 14:15:54 GMT
yeah, I don't think ceejay followed my reasoning exactly,,,,
But in the absence of new lenders coming forward / new deposits onto the platform and therefore new lending by RS, I do hope RS management are shedding overheads as fast as possible.
I posted earlier that I don't see the sort of naughtiess at RS, that finished Lendy / FS / Col. But.....
judging by my own Access account, I have about 7% per month returned through interest / amortisation / loan repayments. This is about what would be expected as average loan length in Access ~20 months.
If RS loanbook was £800m early March, with RYI (£40m) and the natural attentuation from amortisation / loan repayments, I estimate the RS loanbook to be circa £650m now and it will be ~£500m somewhere around the start of August if the same trajectory is maintained.
So I do not see the current RS arrangement with staff and offices in central London etc, to be viable going forward.
A big re-structure is essential or they will sleep walk into insolvency.
RS had some good borrower acquisition tech and also high lender support. But I don't see business as normal even if Covid soon passes Because 'Access' products have been shown to be anything but, the pricing of risk very wrong......
Going forward RS is going to have to reboot with the good bits of the business they had. They should shed overhead , move to Coventry office and come up with some new fixed term products - maybe 'issues' with fixed redemption dates and coupon, a bit like Bonds!
Good luck to them, good luck to us.
I'm not in huge disagreement with where you're heading, but I do think you need to watch your assumptions carefully. There's another one in here - that every £1 of RYI means £1 less on the loan book. Not at all, or even anything close - if I invest (or reinvest) £1 and that £1 buys your RYI then the net change in the loan book is zero. I'm not saying that this would account for all of the RYI, but it's certainly not 0%. My suspicion, which I can't validate, is that most RYIs are being funded by auto-reinvests from hands-off investors. But, as I say, I'm in broad agreement about the general direction. RS have a decent chance of emerging from this crisis intact, but they are likely to end up with different products and possibly a smaller loan book - or, more likely I think, there will be consolidation across platforms which might achieve the required cost savings.
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Post by captaincodeman on May 17, 2020 17:10:40 GMT
With a loan book of say 800 million and ratesetter say 9 out of 10 investors have continued to invest so as an average that means that 80 million is in the release queue of which 40 million has been paid out so should be about 40 million left in the queue , which we know is unrealistic. Maybe one day we will know what the total RYI was The "9 out of 10 investors have continued to invest" could be misleading. I'd like to withdraw all my money, but I can't, so am I being counted as one of those "9 out of 10 investors"? Because technically I'm still "investing". If so, how many other people are too and what is the true number of people who are actively putting money into RS to be lent out vs those who just still have money in that they would like to withdraw? More importantly, that money _will_ be withdrawn as soon as it is repaid, so isn't going to contribute to any future lending. It makes no sense to claim the majority of people are investing but not be lending money out.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on May 17, 2020 17:44:36 GMT
The last update on the size of the loan book at the start of April as per the stats page is 830,694,865 pounds. The start of March figure was 874,846,235 pounds. So a fall of 44,151,370 pounds in a month. 650m as an estimate for the size of the current loan book may be a bit low.
The May and June figures will give some indication about how quickly the loan book is shrinking. Of course less loans are being written but also some loans are being deferred.
April lending was 22.4m Euros, 69% lower than the same month last year. I expect it will fall again in May. RS display the weekly lending volumes in pounds on their website.
RateSetter told us last year what a typical month looked like.
Each month around £50m comes in via borrower repayments in interest and capital to lenders. £20-30m comes in from new investments each month. This means there is £70-80m of liquidity each month, from which they can process withdrawals and match to new loans. Of course we are not in normal times now and there are no new lenders signing up for now. So these numbers will be different.
On the APR, from my experience higher interest rates are typically associated with higher risk.
The trick is always in the pricing of risk but also looking for low risk opportunities where borrowers are not always as price sensitive as they should be...
For example the gifgaff loans via ratesetter have an average Apr of 18.9% Apr, but perhaps people on the whole make sure they pay their phone bills rather than other bills...
It is very much reliant on the knowledge, experience, processes etc. of the platform to correctly price risk and look for opportunities.
It will take at least 12 months I think to see how much of the deferred payments will be repaid in full or in part, and how many people sadly are unable to pay for whatever reason. I think it is hard to assess right now.
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wuzimu
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Post by wuzimu on May 17, 2020 18:38:27 GMT
....Slight correction, the £830,694,865 was reported end of April, correct as at 1st April, . £874,846,235 pounds was reported end of March, correct as at 1st March. etc I hadn't spotted those RS numbers tho, v. useful
So the reported fall of £44,151,370 pounds this month only really shows the effect of 1/2 month of panic....
I suggest end of May figure , correct for 1st May, will show a fall in loan book by c£80m (that being a full month of panic), to £750m.
Could quite easily be £650m by August. But I accept my assumptions may be wide of the mark, in particular I accept ceejay recent clarification....
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jlend
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Post by jlend on May 17, 2020 18:45:36 GMT
....Slight correction, the £830,694,865 was reported end of April, correct as at 1st April, . £874,846,235 pounds was reported end of March, correct as at 1st March. etc I hadn't spotted those RS numbers tho, v. useful
So the reported fall of £44,151,370 pounds this month only really shows the effect of 1/2 month of panic....
I suggest end of May figure , correct for 1st May, will show a fall in loan book by c£80m (that being a full month of panic), to £750m.
Could quite easily be £650m by August. But I accept my assumptions may be wide of the mark, in particular I accept ceejay recent clarification.... Good spot. Updated to keep accurate. Be interesting to see how much it falls. Am not sure about 80m as normal borrower repayments in a typical month were 50m last year according to RS. I expect large property loans skew individual months. Certainly seems like a fall over 50m seems possible.
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beagle
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Post by beagle on May 18, 2020 19:31:30 GMT
well we better hope they lend more then.
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