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Post by default on Jun 14, 2020 12:24:19 GMT
You don't say a thing like "completely wrong" and follow it up with the excuse that it should have been taken down long ago without knowing that you're contradicting yourself and making an excuse to defend the very thing you said was "completely wrong". I think Kier Starmer needs to be far more careful about what he says if he isn't going to loose too much credibility. And, by the way, of those standing for the Labour leadership, he was by far my favourite. I just don't like what he's doing over this issue. He's clearly taken sides and by doing so he's just adding to the polarisation of our society. I'd like to see a fairer society. I'd like to have everyone feel valued. But I'm not going to dumb down issues like this just to sound popular. The whole of the British empire was built on exploitation. That's our history. We can't just stick it all in a museum and pretend it didn't happen. This kind of view is just a form of denial. We have to live with our past and use it as a reminder to steer us towards a better future. I simply don't follow your argument that it is contradictory to believe a statue ought to be removed with proper consent and procedures but wrong to vandalise it. I view that as absolutely consistent and indeed the correct way that any public campaign to change a public space should proceed. You can accept and acknowledge your history, and use it to steer a better future course, without putting statues in public spaces you know. Ask Germany. You could just as well argue that by continuing to venerate slave traders in public spaces, that is in itself a denial of the wrongs of the past. btw I am not arguing that it is right or wrong to take the statues down, merely that I disagree that the stances taken are contradictory, and that I disagree that taking statues down (if that is what the public wants in public spaces) would in and of itself be a form of denial. As I understand it, there had been attempts to have this statue removed by legal means, and they had failed. So, Kier Starmer clearly had no interest in abiding by that process. Instead, he chose to make a statement that supported an illegal act. I know you can't see that. So, I'll leave it there.
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Post by stan88 on Jun 14, 2020 12:26:58 GMT
One statue in London I've always thought odd is Boudica. She burned Londinium (Roman London) down killing most of it's inhabitants in AD60, 1700 years later they put a statue up to her. In 1700 years would they put a statue up to Hitler? it's certainly a strange journey we go on in our minds.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 15, 2020 19:55:06 GMT
Personally i think i'm in agreement with Boris when he tweeted....
"We cannot now try to edit or censor our past. We cannot pretend to have a different history. The statues in our cities and towns were put up by previous generations.
They had different perspectives, different understandings of right and wrong. But those statues teach us about our past, with all its faults. To tear them down would be to lie about our history, and impoverish the education of generations to come."
That's not to say that rules. regulations and indeed laws cannot be changed today to reflect society as it is today, but i think i agree with the jist.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2020 20:46:20 GMT
I'm all for the replacement of disliked statues, but first, let's get rid of Peter Pan. A child that refused to age, he convinced other children in his terrible ways and attacked local institutions and their representatives.
Harder Cromwell.
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ceejay
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Post by ceejay on Jun 18, 2020 14:35:35 GMT
Personally i think i'm in agreement with Boris when he tweeted.... "We cannot now try to edit or censor our past. We cannot pretend to have a different history. The statues in our cities and towns were put up by previous generations. They had different perspectives, different understandings of right and wrong. But those statues teach us about our past, with all its faults. To tear them down would be to lie about our history, and impoverish the education of generations to come." That's not to say that rules. regulations and indeed laws cannot be changed today to reflect society as it is today, but i think i agree with the jist. I disagree. First of all, many of these statues are themselves reinventions of a mythical history (a slave trader as hero, for one!). Secondly, statues in public places have nothing to do with describing history and everything to do with public celebration. Good examples of statues might be a football club's favourite player, or Florence Nightingale outside a hospital, or Eric Morecambe in Morecambe. They should commemorate people and/or events that (almost) all can celebrate. The proper place for history is in a museum where the person can be properly contextualised, or a properly balanced school curriculum (which, BTW, we decidedly do NOT have in this country - any reference to the atrocities committed by the British has been thoroughly airbrushed out - this is IMHO a significant part of the causes of the structural racism still found in far too many places). An earlier poster also referenced the use of a majority to determine whether a statue should stay up or not. No, absolutely not. A statue to a highly divisive figure who is loved by 51% of the population and hated by 49% has no place except within private premises where only the lovers will find it. If you want to learn more about the tyranny of majoritarianism then just look to the history of Northern Ireland. If you want a country to move forward, you have to look for ways to heal and not to divide.
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Post by default on Jun 18, 2020 14:57:26 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53089528
This is the kind of thing that happens when those in authority look the other way. I can't say that I'm surprised. Everyone with an axe to grind will now feel empowered to do whatever they want.
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benaj
Member of DD Central
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Post by benaj on Jun 18, 2020 15:25:21 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53089528
This is the kind of thing that happens when those in authority look the other way. I can't say that I'm surprised. Everyone with an axe to grind will now feel empowered to do whatever they want. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21041160According to this old article, crime related to vandalism is linked to boredom. The lockdown, school closures, and unemployment is not going to help. Police should probably know in advance, but with the BLM protests are still ongoing, priorities are somewhere else.
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Post by default on Jun 18, 2020 15:35:15 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-53089528
This is the kind of thing that happens when those in authority look the other way. I can't say that I'm surprised. Everyone with an axe to grind will now feel empowered to do whatever they want. www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21041160According to this old article, crime related to vandalism is linked to boredom. The lockdown, school closures, and unemployment is not going to help. Police should probably know in advance, but with the BLM protests are still ongoing, priorities are somewhere else. When the person that did this writes ...
"Put Colston's statue back or things will really heat up."
... it seems a little dismissive to attribute this to boredom.
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Post by default on Jun 18, 2020 16:06:48 GMT
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benaj
Member of DD Central
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Post by benaj on Jun 18, 2020 16:33:35 GMT
It's impossible to change historical events. Human evolution is a lengthy process. Just because our ancestors are brutal 1000 / million years ago, we don't go after destroying everything left by them.
In fact, the things left by them are generally seen as treasures.
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jun 18, 2020 17:04:06 GMT
"Churchill, as a successful leader in time of war, must not be mythologised as a man without significant flaws; on race he was backward even in his day." from a statement issued last week ( here in full) by Churchill College, Cambridge.
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Jun 18, 2020 20:55:26 GMT
I like old statues. What I really can't abide are shoddy artifacts created by relevant artists.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 19, 2020 21:30:06 GMT
"Churchill, as a successful leader in time of war, must not be mythologised as a man without significant flaws; on race he was backward even in his day." from a statement issued last week ( here in full) by Churchill College, Cambridge. He wasn't mythologised because of his flaws, and everyone has them, neither has anyone else, as far as i can recall, he was mythologised because he and millions of right minded soldiers and civilians throughout the world, saved the UK and Europe (inc the help of USA) from a brutal nazi dictatorship, but maybe we should forget all that and concentrate SOLELY on blm.
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Post by martin44 on Jun 19, 2020 21:30:51 GMT
I like old statues. What I really can't abide are shoddy artifacts created by relevant artists. Agree.... dead cows... no thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 12:22:15 GMT
Every statue has feet of clay.
Mandela had Winnie.
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