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Post by pauliee on Aug 18, 2020 20:54:21 GMT
Hi,
I was cashing out here, but not due to the court case, due to the loss making business model. Since covid I've actually turned that thinking around and see this as being a valuable diversification away from the property market and the volumes indicate that perhaps covid could prove profitable for UB.
I still have reservations and I'd like to see UB move to a lower LTV against all loans, just 10% lower on these watches would make me much happier. Then there seems to be no shortage of lenders at this level, but if they lowered the LTV would they be shorter of borrowers in these tough times?
Apart from UB, Mintos was my other diversification from pure property P2P. I only backed guaranteed loans so have walked out of there up in the region of 7% per annum as they closed there doors to non EU business - I was unwinding before covid.
So purpose of the post is...does anyone have any non property based P2P they could indicate is worth some research?
Thanks
Pauliee
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Post by Ace on Aug 18, 2020 21:39:11 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all.
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Post by df on Aug 21, 2020 19:30:39 GMT
Hi, I was cashing out here, but not due to the court case, due to the loss making business model. Since covid I've actually turned that thinking around and see this as being a valuable diversification away from the property market and the volumes indicate that perhaps covid could prove profitable for UB. I still have reservations and I'd like to see UB move to a lower LTV against all loans, just 10% lower on these watches would make me much happier. Then there seems to be no shortage of lenders at this level, but if they lowered the LTV would they be shorter of borrowers in these tough times? Apart from UB, Mintos was my other diversification from pure property P2P. I only backed guaranteed loans so have walked out of there up in the region of 7% per annum as they closed there doors to non EU business - I was unwinding before covid. So purpose of the post is...does anyone have any non property based P2P they could indicate is worth some research? Thanks Pauliee Can't provide any data as the evidence, but just from my observation - comparing to many other platforms, UB's LTV's are actually real  Perhaps Ablrate could be worth looking at for high interest non-property loans.
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Post by pauliee on Aug 26, 2020 20:32:37 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all. thanks ace, looks binary in outcome but a high risk punt could prove very rewarding. a lost case seems to be lost funds so diversification is key!
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Post by pauliee on Aug 26, 2020 20:37:56 GMT
Hi, I was cashing out here, but not due to the court case, due to the loss making business model. Since covid I've actually turned that thinking around and see this as being a valuable diversification away from the property market and the volumes indicate that perhaps covid could prove profitable for UB. I still have reservations and I'd like to see UB move to a lower LTV against all loans, just 10% lower on these watches would make me much happier. Then there seems to be no shortage of lenders at this level, but if they lowered the LTV would they be shorter of borrowers in these tough times? Apart from UB, Mintos was my other diversification from pure property P2P. I only backed guaranteed loans so have walked out of there up in the region of 7% per annum as they closed there doors to non EU business - I was unwinding before covid. So purpose of the post is...does anyone have any non property based P2P they could indicate is worth some research? Thanks Pauliee Can't provide any data as the evidence, but just from my observation - comparing to many other platforms, UB's LTV's are actually real Perhaps Ablrate could be worth looking at for high interest non-property loans. I was unfortunate to be tied up in the trickswitch debacle, though fortunate enough to sell below par to be left with less than 300 tied up till someone wants to buy pubs in poor downtroden northern towns ??. no ablrate for me. ever
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Post by Ace on Aug 26, 2020 20:56:20 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all. thanks ace, looks binary in outcome but a high risk punt could prove very rewarding. a lost case seems to be lost funds so diversification is key! Yep, you got it. Incase you haven't found it there's a thread about them here
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elliotn
Member of DD Central
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Post by elliotn on Aug 30, 2020 9:47:45 GMT
If you want to stick to uk p2p - an extremely niche market among global assets, see alternatives to p2p thread if u wish to diversify - then Lendwise offers diversification via education, axial for legal case funding, lendingcrowd for SME lending, various crowd property platforms to be the part owner of your properties (yielders, uown, assetz exchange, bricklayer etc), crowd equity platforms to own shares of different uk start-ups etc (seedrs, crowdcube).
edit - btw, if u were not intent on p2p but still preferred fixed income, then WiseAlpha allows you to buy into the loans of UK (& foreign) companies such as HSBC, Centrica, Goldman Sachs etc. Note that valuations may move although you can hold until redemption. (Platform risk remains although the underlying, traded bonds are likely to be more liquid than a hole in Blackburn.)
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 30, 2020 18:43:04 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all. Bloody hell though: In summary, any investor in litigation funding needs to recognise the potential for loss of capital in excess of the amount invested and assess whether the risk and return possible from this asset class are a good match for their own investment objectives.From:www.axiafunder.com/help/faq/what-happens-if-the-case-i-invest-in-losesIf they can't structure it without limiting my losses to what I invest, I would struggle to get involved.... More scary than spreadbetting as at least in the former its very clear how much and how you can lose.
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Post by bracknellboy on Aug 30, 2020 20:34:02 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all. Bloody hell though: In summary, any investor in litigation funding needs to recognise the potential for loss of capital in excess of the amount invested and assess whether the risk and return possible from this asset class are a good match for their own investment objectives.From:www.axiafunder.com/help/faq/what-happens-if-the-case-i-invest-in-losesIf they can't structure it without limiting my losses to what I invest, I would struggle to get involved.... More scary than spreadbetting as at least in the former its very clear how much and how you can lose. Not read, but the description reminds me of the way Lloyd's umderwriting used to work up till the late 1990's/early 2000's (?). Lloyd's Names ?
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Aug 31, 2020 11:08:07 GMT
AxiaFunder might be worth a look as it's uncorelated with other investments. It's way up on the risk/reward scale, so certainly not suitable for all. Bloody hell though: In summary, any investor in litigation funding needs to recognise the potential for loss of capital in excess of the amount invested and assess whether the risk and return possible from this asset class are a good match for their own investment objectives.From:www.axiafunder.com/help/faq/what-happens-if-the-case-i-invest-in-losesIf they can't structure it without limiting my losses to what I invest, I would struggle to get involved.... More scary than spreadbetting as at least in the former its very clear how much and how you can lose. There is a much more detailed discourse on how risk is mitigated in this (recently updated) AxiaFunder blog: What are the risks facing an investor in litigation funding? -- worth the 5mins it takes to read, imo. I can't see any historical stats so have emailed asking for them. Ooops! Found them!!  (Was hoping there would be higher case counts and more history to get a better feel for things.) Might be something to look at further once the effects of CV-19 have been thoroughly flushed through the courts' scheduling capabilities. Right now, the seemingly ever-extending time it's taking to get cases to court surely can't be doing XIRRs on this type of investment any favours.
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Post by Ace on Aug 31, 2020 13:11:47 GMT
Bloody hell though: In summary, any investor in litigation funding needs to recognise the potential for loss of capital in excess of the amount invested and assess whether the risk and return possible from this asset class are a good match for their own investment objectives.From:www.axiafunder.com/help/faq/what-happens-if-the-case-i-invest-in-losesIf they can't structure it without limiting my losses to what I invest, I would struggle to get involved.... More scary than spreadbetting as at least in the former its very clear how much and how you can lose. There is a much more detailed discourse on how risk is mitigated in this (recently updated) AxiaFunder blog: What are the risks facing an investor in litigation funding? -- worth the 5mins it takes to read, imo. I can't see any historical stats so have emailed asking for them. Might be something to look at further once the effects of CV-19 have been thoroughly flushed through the courts' scheduling capabilities. Right now, the seemingly ever-extending time it's taking to get cases to court surely can't be doing XIRRs on this type of investment any favours.Hi iRobot, While I agree with you that the XIRRs will generally be lower the longer a case drags on, I don't see that as a reason not to invest now. The XIRRs reduce over time because the returns are based on simple interest, but, even so, the returns from a winning case are still higher than I'm getting on any other investments. Taking an example of investing £1,000 in a case that pays a simple interest return of 75% per annum would give the following results: If it settles after 1 year you would receive £1,750 (a £750 profit) giving an XIRR of 75%. If it settles after 2 years you would receive £2,500 (a £1,500 profit) giving an XIRR of 58%. If it settles after 3 years you would receive £3,250 (a £2,250 profit) giving an XIRR of 48%. If it settles after 4 years you would receive £4,000 (a £3,000 profit) giving an XIRR of 41%. So yes, the XIRR reduces, but I'd be more than happy with any of the above. Obviously case losses over a portfolio of loans needs to be factored in as you would have to be extremely lucky to pick only winners with this level of risk.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Aug 31, 2020 13:35:47 GMT
There is a much more detailed discourse on how risk is mitigated in this (recently updated) AxiaFunder blog: What are the risks facing an investor in litigation funding? -- worth the 5mins it takes to read, imo. I can't see any historical stats so have emailed asking for them. Might be something to look at further once the effects of CV-19 have been thoroughly flushed through the courts' scheduling capabilities. Right now, the seemingly ever-extending time it's taking to get cases to court surely can't be doing XIRRs on this type of investment any favours.Hi iRobot , While I agree with you that the XIRRs will generally be lower the longer a case drags on, I don't see that as a reason not to invest now. The XIRRs reduce over time because the returns are based on simple interest, but, even so, the returns from a winning case are still higher than I'm getting on any other investments. Taking an example of investing £1,000 in a case that pays a simple interest return of 75% per annum would give the following results: If it settles after 1 year you would receive £1,750 (a £750 profit) giving an XIRR of 75%. If it settles after 2 years you would receive £2,500 (a £1,500 profit) giving an XIRR of 58%. If it settles after 3 years you would receive £3,250 (a £2,250 profit) giving an XIRR of 48%. If it settles after 4 years you would receive £4,000 (a £3,000 profit) giving an XIRR of 41%. So yes, the XIRR reduces, but I'd be more than happy with any of the above. Obviously case losses over a portfolio of loans needs to be factored in as you would have to be extremely lucky to pick only winners with this level of risk. Apologies - probably some Bank-Holiday brain-fade on my part, but ... I don't understand  If a case is won and the investors' return was 75%, how does that same case return more just because it has taken two years to resolve due to CV-19 delays? Wouldn't the outcome be the same, but the time to get there is extended? Maybe I need to re-read the proposal, but I thought returns were effectively 'fixed' inasmuch as a case, if successful, is only every likely to return X% however long it takes. (BTW - found the stats page and updated my earlier post.)
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Mousey
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Post by Mousey on Aug 31, 2020 13:44:10 GMT
An 11 day trial can next be booked in Jan 2022!
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Post by Ace on Aug 31, 2020 18:30:10 GMT
Hi iRobot , While I agree with you that the XIRRs will generally be lower the longer a case drags on, I don't see that as a reason not to invest now. The XIRRs reduce over time because the returns are based on simple interest, but, even so, the returns from a winning case are still higher than I'm getting on any other investments. Taking an example of investing £1,000 in a case that pays a simple interest return of 75% per annum would give the following results: If it settles after 1 year you would receive £1,750 (a £750 profit) giving an XIRR of 75%. If it settles after 2 years you would receive £2,500 (a £1,500 profit) giving an XIRR of 58%. If it settles after 3 years you would receive £3,250 (a £2,250 profit) giving an XIRR of 48%. If it settles after 4 years you would receive £4,000 (a £3,000 profit) giving an XIRR of 41%. So yes, the XIRR reduces, but I'd be more than happy with any of the above. Obviously case losses over a portfolio of loans needs to be factored in as you would have to be extremely lucky to pick only winners with this level of risk. Apologies - probably some Bank-Holiday brain-fade on my part, but ... I don't understand If a case is won and the investors' return was 75%, how does that same case return more just because it has taken two years to resolve due to CV-19 delays? Wouldn't the outcome be the same, but the time to get there is extended? Maybe I need to re-read the proposal, but I thought returns were effectively 'fixed' inasmuch as a case, if successful, is only every likely to return X% however long it takes. (BTW - found the stats page and updated my earlier post.) I've invested in 6 cases so far and none of them have been a fixed return. They tend to be x% per annum on a simple interest basis. In the example I quoted above, if the case took 3 years for a positive resolution you would get a return of 3 * 75% profit on your investment. So,for a £1,000 investment you would receive a return of your £1,000 capital and £2,250 profit. The reward structure isn't always quite that simple. It could be something like 120% profit if the case resolve positively any time within the first 2 years, then 15% for each quarter year (or part thereof) after that. So if the case was won after 2 years and 4 months you would receive a 150% profit (120 + 2×15). So, the longer a case takes to resolve the higher the absolute return, but generally the lower the XIRR.
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iRobot
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Post by iRobot on Aug 31, 2020 18:51:28 GMT
Ace - thanks for taking the time and trouble to explain - appreciated.
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(Was hoping there would be higher case counts and more history to get a better feel for things.)
