morris
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Post by morris on Sept 26, 2020 7:57:55 GMT
One question I have regarding the action of casting a vote, which someone far more legally qualified than myself may be willing to answer. if you strongly disagree with the process already progressed and being proposed and therefore against the proposal itself. Are you better to not vote at all, as the act of casting a vote, even if “no” could be argued / viewed as being in support of the process the company is proposing? I'm no expert, but the CVA proposal must be agreed by 75% of (by value) of debt holders. So there will be a substantial number of investors who will not vote because they can't be bothered or don't understand the proposal, and will therefore count against the against the proposal.
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ventora
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Post by ventora on Sept 26, 2020 9:13:45 GMT
Hi all, new to this forum. Question. As an investor with Wellesley, if we go into administration I will loose all my money (Series 3 Mini-Bond). If I choose CVA I could get back an estimated 1p or 25p, depending on my choice. Now I see many are opting to vote no to CVA, could someone explain how this would be the better choice? Thanks.
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Post by carol167 on Sept 26, 2020 10:56:35 GMT
carol167 Avatar 22 Sep 2020 at 5:54pm carol167 said: So.... of my total investment of 30k over 3 & 5 years in the P-2-P it looks like I am going to have received back a total of £29905 which includes all the interest to date plus the proposed CVA return of what is outstanding. Therefore it will have cost me £100 to invest in Wellesley for 5 years for absolutely FA return. And that doesn't include the Tax I've had to pay on the interest I've effectively never now received. Thanks for nothing Wellesley. From what I can see logging into the classic account and directors document, the estimated recovery is 44% for non CVA or 48%% CVA (p2p not bonds) not sure how you worked yours out but seems a bit optimistic? my estimates also appear to be a few hundred quid out.. Should it be a percentage of the initial investment (In my case £10k over 5yrs 5.25% PLUS All withdrawn interest accrued to date? The example seems to hint that? Understand you have a 3yr and 5yr but if you have say £15k still in the 5yr don’t you stand to only recover less than half plus any interest you’ve already withdrawn so considerably less than your estimate? I had 1 x 3yr which matured a while ago and 2 x 5 years (one of which matured a couple months ago ish). All were for 10k each. Had the 1st 5year not yet matured I would have lost quite a bit. Lucky in one way, not lucky in that I still had a 5year one to mature end of December. Eggs in multiple baskets was a good thing in this case. Yes I was counting all interest accrued to date.
Obviously not counting the loss in tax paid on the interest, OR the amount of interest it all would have earnt in an easy access account (or locked away in a 5 year govt covered account).
[Edit : I either not going to vote in protest (they've currently got my address wrong on the form) or I'm going to vote NO. So if it goes to NO - I will loose another £500 or so.]
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Post by dm on Sept 26, 2020 17:12:39 GMT
I was reading that Wellesley has ~ 11,000 clients so there must be at least a couple of commercial/financial lawyers within that mix that can advise how best to proceed?
This CVA seems totally contrived to 'rip off' investors with so many indicators: Covertly selling the loan book to another Wellesley Group company for a massive discount with deferred payment by Cloverleaf, but that company effectively getting all the benefit when the UKP 100 mill of loans get repaid. No announcement or information to clients that they had sold the loan book nor any vote on the matter. No transparency on other bidders or that such a process had been carried out. No discussion or proposal on other options for dealing with the short term liquidity issues. A very lengthy and complex CVA document [220 pages] with only a short time given for evaluation. The implied threat that the company 'may' [threat: 'will'] be put into administration if the CVA is rejected with many investors losing big time [especially minibond holders].
I could go on with the multitude of concerns I have that we are all being manifestly 'stitched up' for the benefit of Wellesley senior management [especially the titled Graham Wellesley]. We are being put between a 'rock and a hard place' and I hope there is a client out there who can co-ordinate a strategy to protect our interests before it is too late....
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Sept 26, 2020 18:31:56 GMT
I would also be concerned that 3 seperate Cloverfield limited companies have been set up with the same 2 senior managers. Why would that be needed?
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Sept 26, 2020 18:32:18 GMT
Or cloverleaf....
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Post by johnsfield on Sept 27, 2020 7:11:30 GMT
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Post by dm on Sept 27, 2020 8:02:03 GMT
From what I understand the loanbook has already been sold to Cloverleaf [owned by Graham Wellesley and a Wellesley Group Company] from 'under our noses' for a 50% discount and Cloverleaf has deferred payments for the loanbook so they can fund development tranche drawdowns by not having to pay Wellesley clients? When the loans begin to be repaid they will be able to afford the deferred payments from which the CVA amounts will be paid to Wellesley clients and a vast profit will be retained by Cloverleaf. Totally disgraceful and unethical. On purely economic grounds it seems we should vote for the CVA as administration will clearly result in major losses as the only asset Wellesley now has is the deferred UKP 50 mill payment from Cloverleaf? They key questions are: 1. Is the loanbook sale to Cloverleaf legal, challengeable and reversible? 2. If you vote for the CVA, and it gets passed, does that mean that you give up any legal redress against Wellesley and its Directors? 3. If the CVA is rejected can Wellesley clients prevent the company being put into administration without all the other possibilities for resolving the transient liquidity issue being genuinely explored? [a. Requesting clients to take a payment holiday, b. Requesting clients take an interest rate cut, c. Extending maturity dates d. Introducing a monthly service charge]. 4. Is Wellesley playing a game of brinksmanship with its clients in the hope they can 'bounce' clients into this awful CVA?
We need a commercial or fianncial lawyer who is also a Wellesley client to 'step up to the plate' and co-ordinate and advise on a client strategy. In the meantime everybody has to be as much 'noise' about this as possible with:
MPs Financial Conduct Authority Financial Ombudsman Police [Action Fraud] Newspapers Forums Other media
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Post by waryinvestor on Sept 27, 2020 9:28:03 GMT
The Loan Book has already been Sold, irrespective of the Voting – so what difference will it make ?
The Figures mentioned against the various options (subject to voting) are Wellesley ESTIMATES, like the estimates we have been receiving re Suspended Balance or Forecast Recovery. Who knows what the Final Figures would actually be ?
What happens to the Interest on 5 Year P2P Loans (those investors who haven’t opted for monthly interest) ? Would they lose out for not opting for Monthly Interest ?
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Post by angel19 on Sept 27, 2020 10:29:41 GMT
The Loan Book has already been Sold, irrespective of the Voting – so what difference will it make ?
The Figures mentioned against the various options (subject to voting) are Wellesley ESTIMATES, like the estimates we have been receiving re Suspended Balance or Forecast Recovery. Who knows what the Final Figures would actually be ?
What happens to the Interest on 5 Year P2P Loans (those investors who haven’t opted for monthly interest) ? Would they lose out for not opting for Monthly Interest ? Estimated returns are based on capital plus accrued interest. So you haven’t lost all the interest. But you won’t get 100% of the interest and so have lost out to some extent by not opting for monthly interest.
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Post by m1kehunt on Sept 27, 2020 19:05:35 GMT
So glad I opted for withdrawing interest monthly and have received 59 of the 60 interest payments, lessons the blow a bit but still stand to lose a lot like everyone else. Truly disgusting leeching individuals worse then career unemployed benefit scroungers.. ********..
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Post by m1kehunt on Sept 27, 2020 19:11:09 GMT
Agree with previous poster dm point 3, it’s a liquidity issue and We would be happy to wait until the property market normalises, properties are sold and loans are repaid.. why the hell aren’t Wellesley at least considering this idea? How can the loan book be sold to a subsidiary of the same company who will (once property market improves) make back the 50%?? Grrrrrr!
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Post by belladog on Sept 27, 2020 20:39:01 GMT
I also took the monthly interest option just as a safety net. I’m really glad I did as I’ve only lost 2 interest payments. But I’ve still lost well over half my investment. I rue the day I ever heard of Wellesley. One of the reasons I invested was the so called safety net. As useful as a bloody hair net to a bald man. Never again. Sws
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Post by Ton ⓉⓞⓃ on Sept 28, 2020 8:50:57 GMT
Mod Comment to All
I know feeling are running high but please be careful not to be post libellously.
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np
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Post by np on Sept 28, 2020 9:33:58 GMT
I am new to this forum but have experience of the Lendy administration process and I would not want to waste any more money on expensive administrators for a uncertain outcome. As a P2P creditor is seems to me the best option is to take whatever money is available and run!
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