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Post by earthbound on May 29, 2016 19:31:18 GMT
Have I missed something? What's all this talk of suing SS? Not something that's likely to happen, it's just discussing very unlikely eventualities and where people might stand if those unlikely things were to happen. Personally I'm confident that that sort of thing won't end up happening even if in extremis it's what could happen. I think this reasoning is totally crazy. Defaults are unfortunately a part of the p2p lending. I have had 40+ defaults on FC, and on some of them there was CLEAR and explicit fraud (one of the borrowers was later imprisoned as well). I have taken that into account and tried to minimise the losses not trusting any DD except mine... Were any of those loans taken out by FC itself? For this loan, Lendy is the borrower from the consumer lenders and has the obligations to pay. It's expected that the ultimate borrowers might not pay but it's not expected as a routine event that a P2P platform will take out a loan and not pay. One of the selling points of these older loans is that Lendy had that payment obligation so things like it not being necessary to worry about which loan money was lent on happened as a result. The more recent loans at SavingStream aren't directly to Lendy so that issue doesn't arise for them. And for new loans taken out from 11 May it's also clear that there is no obligation to pay interest until after sale of assets if the ultimate borrower defaults. Of course in this case I think that Lendy will ultimately pay. Interesting little snippet of the T&Cs here, not sure what i make of it, but? Lender's agreements with Saving Stream
15.1 You agree that Saving Stream is making no warranty or representation as to the ability of borrowers to repay loans or pay interest or fees on those loans, and their credit risk, and that *we are in no way liable for the debts of borrowers to you.* You acknowledge that you are lending entirely at your own risk.
The first line is important regarding whether this loan is on new or old T&Cs, OR..does this exonerate SS either way edit * There's legislation relating to Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations and guidance from the OFT on it (now CMA but the guidance bears the OFT name). For Lendy to argue that it is not responsible for repaying money that it borrowed in its own name, as it did for this loan, would be a good example of such an unfair term. For new contracts since 2015 the unfair terms in consumer contracts law has been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act (2015) and the CMA has a guidance document on what the rights are. i have a feeling the old T&Cs mean nothing. Any lenders use of the platform automatically means that they accept the current T&Cs 24.5
These terms and conditions and the Loan Contracts set out the entire agreement between you and us with respect to your use of the platform and the services provided via the platform and supersede any and all representations, communications and prior agreements (written or oral) made by you or us.Both an unfair contract term and breach of FCA guidance on what it expects in contracts between consumers and financial businesses that it regulates. Such a term needs to specify the circumstances and possible natures of the changes. This is one reason why most people who have bank accounts over the last few years have been getting notices fo variations in terms that adds details of when the terms might be changed instead of a whenever we like version. A firm can't just go and disclaim all of its past statements about how it would act, except possibly for new transactions carried out after the change, and even then if there is not a specific revocation of an undertaking I'd expect it to still be bound by it. Otherwise every time there is a change of contract that doesn't have to be notified to consumers the consumers would have to present the firm with a list of all of its previous undertakings and ask which, if any, of them it still intended to keep to for new agreements. You'll probably have noticed that changes are normally pointed out when banks update their agreements. Complaint path for this would be ideally first to the firm, then the FOS in a specific situation or alternatively to the FCA's unfair contract terms team, whether there is or isn't a current dispute. The most relevant thing for the FCA team at the moment would be Lendy modifying its own obligation to pay interest each month on a loan it took out itself. No problem for future contracts, just past ones. james thanks for providing some insight into this, i'm no contract expert and its good to have another opinion, personally? i think its s**t that SS can/may be able to.. get away with this sort of thing, i hope that they have to abide by the original T&Cs , but they surely do not make changes like this without good advice.
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james
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Post by james on May 29, 2016 19:40:22 GMT
It's completely off topic but some examples of safety measures expected in the UK included things like guards all around machines even if the machine was backed up against a brick wall. Example case was a builder who made a hole in a wall and reached through it without seeing what was on the other side, with unfortunate results because the wall side had no guard. Little reason for parental liability if reports are true that the " boy crawled through railing". Instead it's more likely that the parents and law enforcement will be taking action against the zoo for failing to have a safe enclosure, since it's expected and entirely predictable that children will try to crawl through railings, perhaps not even being aware that any danger may be on the other side. It's also why there are things like mandatory window guards on windows in the US, to prevent children from being able to crawl through them and fall.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on May 29, 2016 19:46:02 GMT
Complaint path for this would be ideally first to the firm, then the FOS in a specific situation or alternatively to the FCA's unfair contract terms team, whether there is or isn't a current dispute. The most relevant thing for the FCA team at the moment would be Lendy modifying its own obligation to pay interest each month on a loan it took out itself. No problem for future contracts, just past ones. Where does Lendy/SS state it has an obligation to pay interest monthly on the old structure loans? Monthly interest is in the loan particulars, does that count? Also presumably in the Loan Agreement with Lendy which nodody has seen and no reference to any obligation for Lendy to provide it in T&Cs ISTM One of the problems I see is that the old structure PBLs didnt really have applicable T&Cs as the old T&Cs were written for the boat loans and never amended to take into account the way PBLs operated. We are reliant on custom & practice and SS statement in the General Update about the new structure variations. The statement re interest on default loans is a statement of fact not of policy ie what happened -Lendy continued to pay interest on defaults - not will happen which is only defined for loans written under new structure.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on May 29, 2016 19:46:45 GMT
Back slightly on topic, I find that there are 20 pages in this thread and several other threads terrifying! If that happened for each loan on other platforms going into default this forum would melt. I get that this is a bank holiday and only the second loan defaulting on SS but still. For contrast, a German p2p forum wiseclerk pointed me at has 8 posts on this topic, that's one less than pbl94 has! Whilst my German is appalling I do think they have a point and we are getting close to be going in circles.
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james
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Post by james on May 29, 2016 19:47:51 GMT
i'm no contract expert and its good to have another opinion, personally? i think its s**t that SS can/may be able to.. get away with this sort of thing, i hope that they have to abide by the original T&Cs , but they surely do not make changes like this without good advice. Just give it time. Most of the discussion here is about unlikely eventualities and what will actually happen will undoubtedly be something sensible. Lots of what if stuff but that's broadly what it is and nobody is likely to actually end up out of pocket except Lendy themselves and perhaps those who may lose some interest compounding if Lendy does apply the 11 May change to past loans where Lendy itself was the borrower, something I think would be foolish unless it would actually threaten the business today at the current level of obligations. The FCA concern for the future makes sense, though, and for new contracts I think it's a reasonable change.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on May 29, 2016 19:59:28 GMT
The Investor Activity I can see now for this loan totals £562.37 today. Has SM activity decreased considerably since yesterday? Or have there been a lot more transactions today that already have scrolled off the table? The former, I put some of my holding on the SM yesterday, queue started as 32-odd K, this morning it was queued @ 16-odd K now its 15.6k brianac: Thanks for the info. Did you notice how much interest was shown for the part when you put it up for sale yesterday? Did that change overnight? (When SS introduced the ability to withdraw parts from sale, they said that parts would no longer stop accruing interest as soon as they were offered for sale, but we're not sure whether they actually implemented that change. When parts on the SM are sold instantly, it's not possible to determine what is happening with interest accruals. Now that we have some parts that aren't selling instantly, we ought to be able to work out what's happening.) I've now bought a few pence of this loan and immediately put 1p up for sale. It had £70,787 in front of it at the time, and that hasn't changed in the hour since.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on May 29, 2016 20:01:14 GMT
Back slightly on topic, I find that there are 20 pages in this thread and several other threads terrifying! If that happened for each loan on other platforms going into default this forum would melt. I get that this is a bank holiday and only the second loan defaulting on SS but still. For contrast, a German p2p forum wiseclerk pointed me at has 8 posts on this topic, that's one less than pbl94 has! Whilst my German is appalling I do think they have a point and we are getting close to be going in circles. Compare to the PBL7 thread which reached 9 pages over three months. Also the level of comment, opinion that SS seems to have generated compared to defaults on other platforms which generally dont elict anywhere near the interest.
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Post by earthbound on May 29, 2016 20:02:38 GMT
i'm no contract expert and its good to have another opinion, personally? i think its s**t that SS can/may be able to.. get away with this sort of thing, i hope that they have to abide by the original T&Cs , but they surely do not make changes like this without good advice. Just give it time. Most of the discussion here is about unlikely eventualities and what will actually happen will undoubtedly be something sensible. Lots of what if stuff but that's broadly what it is and nobody is likely to actually end up out of pocket except Lendy themselves and perhaps those who may lose some interest compounding if Lendy does apply the 11 May change to past loans where Lendy itself was the borrower, something I think would be foolish unless it would actually threaten the business today at the current level of obligations. The FCA concern for the future makes sense, though, and for new contracts I think it's a reasonable change. james yep, fully agree, i too think this will work out ok, don't envisage any major losses and i think SS will use the PF for a small amount if needed, i think the biggest concern seems to be around the changes to the T&Cs, which SS seems to think is all ok, i have a slight suspicion that it may be the fact that not many people actually bother reading them.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on May 29, 2016 20:10:18 GMT
Back slightly on topic, I find that there are 20 pages in this thread and several other threads terrifying! If that happened for each loan on other platforms going into default this forum would melt. I get that this is a bank holiday and only the second loan defaulting on SS but still. For contrast, a German p2p forum wiseclerk pointed me at has 8 posts on this topic, that's one less than pbl94 has! Whilst my German is appalling I do think they have a point and we are getting close to be going in circles. Compare to the PBL7 thread which reached 9 pages over three months. Also the level of comment, opinion that SS seems to have generated compared to defaults on other platforms which generally dont elict anywhere near the interest. There are more investors now, with much more money at risk -- PBL020 is ten times as big as PBL007 -- so we ought to expect more comments. But communication from SS -- or lack thereof -- has to be a big factor as well. If SS did a good job explaining what was going to happen, there's be a lot less conversation because there'd be fewer questions and little to speculate about.
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Post by earthbound on May 29, 2016 20:16:16 GMT
Whilst my German is appalling I do think they have a point and we are getting close to be going in circles. Ihr Deutsch ist gut
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Post by harvey on May 29, 2016 20:19:17 GMT
Compare to the PBL7 thread which reached 9 pages over three months. Also the level of comment, opinion that SS seems to have generated compared to defaults on other platforms which generally dont elict anywhere near the interest. There are more investors now, with much more money at risk -- PBL020 is ten times as big as PBL007 -- so we ought to expect more comments. But communication from SS -- or lack thereof -- has to be a big factor as well. If SS did a good job explaining what was going to happen, there's be a lot less conversation because there'd be fewer questions and little to speculate about. Very true. Hopefully SS will be able to issue something next week and render a lot of this discussion redundant. I do feel it's a valid constructive criticism however to make the point that the default was not noted on the website until Friday and it was only casually mentioned in an update sent out on Friday evening and since then there has been nothing. I would say that the communication and information about a very important event to investors could have been better and more reassuring and explanative. Noting that there is about £70,000 on the secondary market, I expect this figure to grow considerably after Tuesday. The email information about the default only came out on Friday evening and many people will have been away or switched off from business things and I would guess that there are quite a lot of people invested in this loan who do not yet know it is in default officially. When some of these people return on Monday evening or Tuesday or even at the end of the half-term week I expect a lot more will try to sell out of this loan and the amount up on the secondary market will be a lot higher.
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Post by earthbound on May 29, 2016 20:24:21 GMT
Compare to the PBL7 thread which reached 9 pages over three months. Also the level of comment, opinion that SS seems to have generated compared to defaults on other platforms which generally dont elict anywhere near the interest. There are more investors now, with much more money at risk -- PBL020 is ten times as big as PBL007 -- so we ought to expect more comments. But communication from SS -- or lack thereof -- has to be a big factor as well. If SS did a good job explaining what was going to happen, there's be a lot less conversation because there'd be fewer questions and little to speculate about. mikes1531 correct and we have the same situation around the scot loans, nothing, they send out a go-live email, and do nothing, how hard is it to drop a post on here and say "sorry fans, go live date has been delayed for 48 hrs because the LNM ate the contract" it takes 2 mins.
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on May 29, 2016 20:36:27 GMT
A bit of information from the garden forum (Gardenforum.co.uk - free for 2 hours when you sign up)...
The joint administrators, <adimistrators name>, were appointed on 24.5.16. They have asked Alexander Mackie to sell the freehold site that includes a house as a going concern.
Alexander Mackie is a specialist professional consultancy and valuation services to the Garden Centre and Nursery Industries (I.e. Sales and Valuations) and has a website where they list the garden centres that they are sell. Our Garden Centre is not there yet, but I presume will be listed in the near future. Worth keeping an eye on.
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Post by brianac on May 29, 2016 20:38:21 GMT
The former, I put some of my holding on the SM yesterday, queue started as 32-odd K, this morning it was queued @ 16-odd K now its 15.6k brianac : Thanks for the info. Did you notice how much interest was shown for the part when you put it up for sale yesterday? Did that change overnight? (When SS introduced the ability to withdraw parts from sale, they said that parts would no longer stop accruing interest as soon as they were offered for sale, but we're not sure whether they actually implemented that change. When parts on the SM are sold instantly, it's not possible to determine what is happening with interest accruals. Now that we have some parts that aren't selling instantly, we ought to be able to work out what's happening.) I've now bought a few pence of this loan and immediately put 1p up for sale. It had £70,787 in front of it at the time, and that hasn't changed in the hour since. up until now, hadn't actually realised you could see the accrued interest. Have noted the figures and will compare them tomorrow evening (work tomorrow I'm afraid, no such thing as a bank holiday for me!) and I'll post them. Regards Brian
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Post by harvey on May 29, 2016 20:44:56 GMT
A bit of information from the garden forum (Gardenforum.co.uk - free for 2 hours when you sign up)... The joint administrators, <adimistrators name>, were appointed on 24.5.16. They have asked Alexander Mackie to sell the freehold site that includes a house as a going concern. Alexander Mackie is a specialist professional consultancy and valuation services to the Garden Centre and Nursery Industries (I.e. Sales and Valuations) and has a website where they list the garden centres that they are sell. Our Garden Centre is not there yet, but I presume will be listed in the near future. Worth keeping an eye on. Top information there, well done. I see they have several garden centres already listed for sale and we will all be very interested to see when our one goes up and what the asking price is. Please keep us informed.
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