adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 8,948
Likes: 4,787
|
Post by adrianc on Feb 21, 2021 13:53:34 GMT
If 12d to the shilling was optimal, why were 1/2p and 1/4p required...? With the farthing, your shilling was base 48 - which is near-as-dammit indistinguishable from 50, which is what you'd have the £ divisible into if we got shot of the 1p... I believe the 1/2 penny and 1/4 penny were initially literally pennies cut into pieces, because even a penny was too big a denomination for poor people (talking silver pennies with intrinsic value). We also had to re-introduce a half penny with metrification because a 'new' penny had more than twice the value of an old penny, so a new half penny gave a much closer conversion to an old penny. 1p in 1971 is the inflation-adjusted inflation of 14.5p now... So 1/2p then is 7p now.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2021 15:13:39 GMT
Whitworth was a fantastic Engineer, sorted out industrialisation long before Ford or whoever really started Oldsmobile, (don't believe Wiki on that one it was probably a Mr Smith). The moving assembly line goes back to the Venetians, as early as the 12th century... They had a mahoosively long ship production line, with the boat starting from a skeleton frame at one end, and plopping off the other end straight into the water - even mentioned by Dante. And Adam Smith's pin factory, of course, a century before Whitworth. But not with interchangeable components.
The assembly line probably goes back to Roman times, certainly the Carthegianian could produce war ships, one per day, from a series of linked stepped change manufacturing elements. But again not with interchangeable elements
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Feb 21, 2021 19:12:42 GMT
but it would be a lot more practical if our common numbering system was 0,1..9AB. It isn't. Its base 10. It would have been even better had humans evolved to have had 8 digits instead of 10, then we would have naturally have created a base 8 number system, which would have had the benefits have been a multiple of a binary base, with benefits alround. But we weren't, and we didn't. Anyway, the point you've made is not a meaningful one. A base 10 number system does not mean we need - or even have - a 1x10 currency unit system. We don't: we have a 1x10^2 in pretty much all decimal based currencies: 100p = £1, 100c = $1, 100c = 1 euro. As you say, that gives lots of options for coins, being divisible by an awful lot more than 1,2,3,4,6, and 12. It seems to work pretty well. I think the US has a quarter, being 25c. We choose to not have. But you could equally well have a 30c/p coin. You don't actually need to have lower denomination coinage to be a factor of the higher level unit. No reason for it to be so. What is useful is being able to carry out currency calculations 'naturally' in the base that is aligned to the universally used number system. .... But if base 10 is so great why do we still have 12 months in a year, 7 days in a week, 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour? And why is the metric version of degrees 400 gons to 360 degrees (this one really confused me in my surveying days)? Let's sort it out guys! There is absolutely nothing special about base 10, a point I have effectively made twice: in the opening part of the post you've quoted, and earlier in this post: p2pindependentforum.com/post/420156/threadBase 10 has absolutely zero special meaning in maths, physics, the universe. Key mathematical constants such as e and pi would still 'be the same', and are still irrational numbers whatever base system you choose to express their value in. So their is zilch special about base 10 relative to the 'universe'. However, pretty much the entire human world, if not the entire human world, has adopted a number system grounded in base 10. As a consequence I'd suggest that its a lot more straightforward for people to 'work out s**t' if the thing they are calculating is counted in the same base as the universally adopted common number system, (unless your a maths/science based person and are adept at switching bases). If humans had evolved with only 4 digits per hand instead of 5, we would no doubt have adopted a base 8 system as our standard number system instead of base 10. And then we would be arguing the merits of universally using an octal system instead of some esoteric decimal system that some corner of the world was using. And indeed arguably that would have been much much nicer: its a multiple of base 2, it would sit snugly with for example wave based phenomena, and the digital world for example. Or if we had been born with 1 extra digit per hand, no doubt we would have developed a base 12 number system and the discussion would be flipped. But we didn't.
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 8,948
Likes: 4,787
|
Post by adrianc on Feb 21, 2021 22:20:50 GMT
But if base 10 is so great why do we still have 12 months in a year, 7 days in a week, 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour? 365 (and a bit) days per year is down to the rotation of the planet around the sun. No more, no less. The rest is man-made. It's just what we're used to. We could have 10 hours per day, 100 minutes per hour... No problem. It would change nothing in the grand scheme of things. Lunar cycles are 28 days, so why don't we have 13 lunar months? We'd only have to "find" one day a year, rather than 5 with 12 x 30. We could have 1,000 minutes/day instead of 1,440. Or why not 15 hrs, 100 minutes? 1,500 minutes, day. 50 seconds/minute, so 75,000 seconds instead of 86,440. Each second would just be 15% longer. Some things come from actual natural rhythms, some are just how mankind chose to devise them at some point in the past. The Mesapotamians, 2,500yrs ago, decided to split the day into 12 and the night into 12. It probably just made for convenient military divisions of guard duties. 60 minutes to the hour was probably the whim of one Iranian, Al Biruni, a thousand years ago during the Islamic Golden Age. The second was irrelevant until technology made mechanical clocks accurate, around the 16th century, then just copied the minute divisions. Base 60 goes back to the Sumerians, 5,000 years ago, as the maximum that was easily countable on two hands - 3 bones on each of four fingers of one hand, pointed with the thumb, times five digits on the other hand. No more than that.
|
|
keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
Posts: 3,864
Likes: 2,305
|
Post by keitha on Feb 22, 2021 10:27:57 GMT
Another story that comes to mind is when the local Council decided everything would go metric.
The Joiners were suddenly happy to work to a 1MM tolerance, having objected for years to being asked to work to 1/10 of an inch.
mind you this is the same bunch of muppets who decided to put the Main depot for snow ploughs some 5 miles out of town, the first heavy unexpected snow and it took several hours for the first member of staff with a gate key to walk through the snow to unlock the gate so the drivers could start to clear the roads, the first thing they did was head for colleagues houses so more staff could get more ploughs on the road.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 12:47:46 GMT
I note that when Texas began getting cold last week, the first thing the power stations did was to reduce power to the Methane pumping companies so that the power stations began to run out of Methane so the powerstations had to reduce power output..............
I also note that the French continue to sell a "livre" of apples while Italians sell in "etto".
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 8,948
Likes: 4,787
|
Post by adrianc on Feb 22, 2021 13:38:24 GMT
I also note that the French continue to sell a "livre" of apples while Italians sell in "etto".
Never come across apples (or any other fruit or veg) being sold in France other than by the kilo. I rather suspect a "livre" would be metricated to 500g... Etto in Italian, definitely - the hectogram, 100g... "Due etto di questo formaggio, grazie" - 200g.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,842
Likes: 2,757
|
Post by michaelc on Mar 5, 2021 18:58:40 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead.
I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries.
|
|
|
Post by bernythedolt on Mar 5, 2021 20:14:25 GMT
In a marvellous irony I picked up from a little snippet on Countdown this week, it seems the mile was a base-10 measure given to us by the Europeans in the first place! Susie Dent told us:- The mille passus was the standard 1000 paces marched by a Roman soldier (where a pace was two steps). Mille became the mile when they brought it over here. So never mind this johnny-come-lately kilometre nonsense, I can continue using miles with a completely clear conscience now.
|
|
ptr120
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 1,346
|
Post by ptr120 on Mar 5, 2021 21:13:03 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead. I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries. I'm just wondering how you see this as a benefit of Brexit that wood can be sold in imperial measures rather than metric? It could before, and it can now. I'm now in my 40's and was taught in mm / cm / m at school, but I know my own height in feet and inches, but not cm.
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Mar 5, 2021 21:34:26 GMT
In a marvellous irony I picked up from a little snippet on Countdown this week, it seems the mile was a base-10 measure given to us by the Europeans in the first place! Susie Dent told us:- The mille passus was the standard 1000 paces marched by a Roman soldier (where a pace was two steps). Mille became the mile when they brought it over here. So never mind this johnny-come-lately kilometre nonsense, I can continue using miles with a completely clear conscience now. she /might/ have that wrong. The 1000 paces is right, but I see it is equated to 5000 feet. So not sure how a 'pace' can translate to two steps. Still, the use of 1000 is about the limit of any base 10 in there. So not really 'base 10' unfortunately. Under English patronage, it was then broken down into a system based around the Barleycorn. I was going to bring this up earlier in the discussion, when @bobo was talking about the merits of inches when it came to fractions: an entirely separate line of discussion I declined to pick up on. But hell....so the Barley corn is one third of an inch..which blows the whole inches = good for fractions out the water, as its sub-units are not the nice base 2 divisors we are familiar with, yeilding the popular 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. 1/16 th sequence, but in fact 1/3 rds. If you have in the slightest interest as to how many 'poppyseeds' there are in a barleycorn, or indeed how many barley corn there are in a 'palm' (a straight base 3 calculation, so a bit of consistentcy for two levels at least), or how many 'gunter's chains' make up a furlong (10 !!! we found a 10 !!) then the link below is mildly interesting. One thing that is interesting in there (more so than the 1760 yards to a mile), is the straight line between Barleycorn, inch, palm and span. This at least would have been a system working on base 3. Perhaps this particular part was invented by someone who had an unfortunate accident with a scythe. Admittedly it breaks down once you try to progress from a span to a cubit or an ell, (x2 and x5 respectively). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_units#/media/File:English_Length_Units_Graph.svg
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Mar 5, 2021 21:36:40 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead. I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries. I'm just wondering how you see this as a benefit of Brexit that wood can be sold in imperial measures rather than metric? It could before, and it can now. I'm now in my 40's and was taught in mm / cm / m at school, but I know my own height in feet and inches, but not cm. don't think wickes has changed its size of offerring since Jan 1st....nope, definitely not.
|
|
|
Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Mar 5, 2021 22:37:12 GMT
In a marvellous irony I picked up from a little snippet on Countdown this week, it seems the mile was a base-10 measure given to us by the Europeans in the first place! Susie Dent told us:- The mille passus was the standard 1000 paces marched by a Roman soldier (where a pace was two steps). Mille became the mile when they brought it over here. So never mind this johnny-come-lately kilometre nonsense, I can continue using miles with a completely clear conscience now. she /might/ have that wrong. The 1000 paces is right, but I see it is equated to 5000 feet. So not sure how a 'pace' can translate to two steps. Still, the use of 1000 is about the limit of any base 10 in there. So not really 'base 10' unfortunately. Under English patronage, it was then broken down into a system based around the Barleycorn. I was going to bring this up earlier in the discussion, when @bobo was talking about the merits of inches when it came to fractions: an entirely separate line of discussion I declined to pick up on. But hell....so the Barley corn is one third of an inch..which blows the whole inches = good for fractions out the water, as its sub-units are not the nice base 2 divisors we are familiar with, yeilding the popular 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. 1/16 th sequence, but in fact 1/3 rds. If you have in the slightest interest as to how many 'poppyseeds' there are in a barleycorn, or indeed how many barley corn there are in a 'palm' (a straight base 3 calculation, so a bit of consistentcy for two levels at least), or how many 'gunter's chains' make up a furlong (10 !!! we found a 10 !!) then the link below is mildly interesting. One thing that is interesting in there (more so than the 1760 yards to a mile), is the straight line between Barleycorn, inch, palm and span. This at least would have been a system working on base 3. Perhaps this particular part was invented by someone who had an unfortunate accident with a scythe. Admittedly it breaks down once you try to progress from a span to a cubit or an ell, (x2 and x5 respectively). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_units#/media/File:English_Length_Units_Graph.svgI bought a pair of shoes today. Anybody want to get into that peculiar nonsense? I have always worn a 9, had to buy a 10 maybe the foot got slightly aroused at the thought of something new.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,842
Likes: 2,757
|
Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 0:18:00 GMT
Just been to Wickes and noticed they are selling timber with the imperial measurement at least if not more prominently than the metric which makes sense because most builders still refer to sawn timber as "4 by 2" etc and they are all sized in imperial and converted. So you never see 20x30mm for example but 19x32mm instead. I think this is one albeit very small benefit of leaving the EU and highlights one of the many stupid things the Commision has done to "harmonise" stuff across the EU paying little attention to the cultures and practices that have been going on in those countries for centuries. I'm just wondering how you see this as a benefit of Brexit that wood can be sold in imperial measures rather than metric? It could before, and it can now. I'm now in my 40's and was taught in mm / cm / m at school, but I know my own height in feet and inches, but not cm. No. It wasn't allowed for imperial measurements to be displayed more prominently than the metric equivalent. The timber was always sold in imperial lengths and then converted. I suspect pints will start to take pride of place shortly too for the same reason. And yes I also calculate my journeys in miles and metres.....
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 4,842
Likes: 2,757
|
Post by michaelc on Mar 6, 2021 0:24:35 GMT
I'm just wondering how you see this as a benefit of Brexit that wood can be sold in imperial measures rather than metric? It could before, and it can now. I'm now in my 40's and was taught in mm / cm / m at school, but I know my own height in feet and inches, but not cm. don't think wickes has changed its size of offerring since Jan 1st....nope, definitely not. No but either I've explained badly or you have misunderstood. Pints of milk might be easier. I can buy a carton of 6 pints but it is displayed as 3.408 litres. That display is what is given prominence. We don't typically buy 3L of milk in the UK. So what I think will change (and seemingly has changed already in Wickes) is that in future the label on the milk will say "6 Pints" with perhaps the 3.408L displayed too buy less noticeably. The size of the offering hasn't changed. Its always been 4 inches by 2 inches or 6 pints. Its just about how it is labelled.
|
|