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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 27, 2021 8:46:51 GMT
[...] I'm going to relish this bit, though... Under the Census, "It is an offence to supply false information or to not complete the census, and you could be fined up to £1,000."Presumably most people here planning to complete the form exactly as shown above risk a fine for supplying false information. Note underneath the question the requirement to tick all that apply. Since most of us are English and British (let's say), that requires at least two boxes ticked. Those adding "European" presumably need to tick three boxes or risk a charge of supplying false information (or perhaps not completing the census). I understand the protest, but surely it carries a finite (if minuscule) risk of a penalty? On the other hand... As ever these days, HMG has introduced ambiguity. Historically the question would have been simply phrased, "What is your national identity?". Since being dumbed down to the more nebulous notion of "How would you describe...?", that of course is not subject to any meaningful test. Who can question how one chooses personally to describe some attribute? Like a fat person choosing to describe themselves as built for comfort - they're the only person who would! Hence they deserve millions of people to play silly buggers with their answer. GIGO. whether completing the form this way is a reasonable thing to do or not, your comment betrays your normal level of critical thinking. Quite clearly the question is aimed at gleaning how individuals view themselves, not how others, including the sate may choose to label them i.e. a question of self identity. Quite clearly it is designed for people to provide options other than the specific ones offered. E.g. one might imagine that members of certain communities may well offer up answers such as Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Asian, Aussie, Polish etc. If the respondent would not self identify as 'British', then given the question is framed to ask for your own perception the statement 'tick all that apply' can hardly require them to tick that option as well as 'other', just because others might label them as such.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 27, 2021 8:50:36 GMT
[...] I'm going to relish this bit, though... Under the Census, "It is an offence to supply false information or to not complete the census, and you could be fined up to £1,000."Presumably most people here planning to complete the form exactly as shown above risk a fine for supplying false information. Note underneath the question the requirement to tick all that apply. Since most of us are English and British (let's say), that requires at least two boxes ticked. Those adding "European" presumably need to tick three boxes or risk a charge of supplying false information (or perhaps not completing the census). I understand the protest, but surely it carries a finite (if minuscule) risk of a penalty? On the other hand... As ever these days, HMG has introduced ambiguity. Historically the question would have been simply phrased, "What is your national identity?". Since being dumbed down to the more nebulous notion of "How would you describe...?", that of course is not subject to any meaningful test. Who can question how one chooses personally to describe some attribute? Like a fat person choosing to describe themselves as built for comfort - they're the only person who would! Of course "How would you describe" is the only sensible question. National IDENTITY is a self-ascribed attribute. It's different from nationality, which is a hard fact. It's how you choose to describe yourself. Likewise, regional identity is self-attributed. Are you a Scouse, a Geordie, a Londoner, a Northerner, a Brummie? I was born in London, grew up in Sheffield and Derbyshire, lived for most of my adult life around the M25, now in the Welsh borders. What's my regional identity? I don't feel I have one - it's an irrelevance to me. Likewise, I don't use "English" at all. "England" is a historic irrelevance, "Englishness" is no more than a default absence of any of the non-default identities associated with the three devolved regions (Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish). And that's before you get to the negative associations of it: JRM, union flag-waving bigotry, and football hooliganism. Thanks, no thanks. "British" is my nationality, it says "UK" on the front of my passport. It's no more than an accident of birth. I feel like I've really lost something through this whole mess - because I HAVE really lost something... On the most surface level, my choices for location of residence have been massively reduced. I used to have most of the continent available to me. Now? Nope. People just like me have far more choices than me, simply because they got a slightly different result on that accident of birth. So, yes, it is an accurate answer. A little story... SWMBO's mother was Swedish. She moved here in the late 50s, newly married to a guy from London who she'd met on holiday. (By today's rules, she almost certainly wouldn't have been able to, because he probably didn't earn enough.) She suffered discrimination from having to register as a "resident alien" fortnightly at the police station through to lots of little digs and slights from neighbours (the sort of thing that is now recognised as "micro-aggressions") - she had been a trilingual secretary for a major publisher, but forever had comments like "Oh, such a pity she never learnt to speak English properly" simply because she had an accent. She never worked here, partly because she wouldn't have got a job, partly because it simply wasn't the done thing. In the early days, she wouldn't have been allowed to, anyway - barely a decade and a half after the war, she was regarded as "one of them" despite having not even been a teenager when the war ended. People thought she was Swiss because they didn't even know the difference between the two countries. When SWMBO was young, they had to log all the currency they were taking in and out of the UK on holiday. SWMBO spent a year as part of her degree living in Sweden... and she would now require a visa to study in the country of her mother's nationality... Dual-nationality isn't even easily open to her, because she would need to live in Sweden for five years first. She could have had dual nationality at birth, but her father was of the generation who thought being British was winning the first prize in the lottery of life... That closed-minded small-horizon exceptionalism has come back. Getting rid of freedom of movement was touted as one of the benefits of Brexit. Except... the only people who lost it were British nationals. Nobody else did. I feel European, and I want to get back my benefits and choices of being European.
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Post by bernythedolt on Feb 27, 2021 12:06:29 GMT
Mea culpa.
Fair points from you both. I've managed to conflate nationality with national identity. There is a separate question on each (or at least there was on the 2011 census - I've just checked).
The same question on one's perception of one's national identity was on that census too.
It will be fascinating to compare how many put European last time round.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Feb 28, 2021 17:49:18 GMT
My understanding is that it is a legal requirement to complete it. Yet yesterday I received a card through to door saying I will receive an invitation to take part. Surely an invitation can be declined. I see your pedantry and raise you the fact that "some of the questions will be voluntary" according to radio coverage. However, from the card "You must complete the census by law". At which point the "voluntary" questions become mandatory. Otherwise, what is the word "complete" doing there? It also says "your answers will be kept confidential", yet they keep publishing them for the genie-ologists to look at .. not very confidential, is it?
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Feb 28, 2021 20:34:09 GMT
When I collected up the forms for my area I discovered that the usual way to evade the Census was to not answer the door...... and ignore all follow up. Not at all unusual either. Just do not refuse formally .
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 1, 2021 11:33:09 GMT
My understanding is that it is a legal requirement to complete it. Yet yesterday I received a card through to door saying I will receive an invitation to take part. Surely an invitation can be declined. I see your pedantry and raise you the fact that "some of the questions will be voluntary" according to radio coverage. However, from the card "You must complete the census by law". At which point the "voluntary" questions become mandatory. Otherwise, what is the word "complete" doing there? It also says "your answers will be kept confidential", yet they keep publishing them for the genie-ologists to look at .. not very confidential, is it? Only after 100 years, so a wait of 10 years between instalments 100 years out of date, very annoying if you are trying to build a family tree.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Mar 2, 2021 13:30:17 GMT
Agreed, but really it should say "Your answers will not be kept confidential. We will sit on them for 100 years and then publish them"
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archie
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Post by archie on Mar 2, 2021 14:17:47 GMT
Agreed, but really it should say "Your answers will not be kept confidential. We will sit on them for 100 years and then publish them" Our descendants will probably still be waiting for some of our P2P loans to complete.
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Post by bracknellboy on Mar 11, 2021 10:22:46 GMT
Got my letter through the door yesterday. Like a good boy, as I'm waiting for someone to call me back on something, I thought I'd get started. Go to website, click on 'Start Census' -> 403 forbidden.
Good start. Is this being run by Di*do Harding by any chance ?
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Mar 11, 2021 10:28:42 GMT
Got my letter through the door yesterday. Like a good boy, as I'm waiting for someone to call me back on something, I thought I'd get started. Go to website, click on 'Start Census' -> 403 forbidden. Good start. Is this being run by Di*do Harding by any chance ? Not surprising. Perhaps read the instructions in the letter - all households should complete the Census on Sunday 21 March or as soon afterwards. Edit though the leaflet does say you can start early, just perhaps not that early Typical mixed measaging
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Post by bracknellboy on Mar 11, 2021 10:41:52 GMT
Got my letter through the door yesterday. Like a good boy, as I'm waiting for someone to call me back on something, I thought I'd get started. Go to website, click on 'Start Census' -> 403 forbidden. Good start. Is this being run by Di*do Harding by any chance ? Not surprising. Perhaps read the instructions in the letter - all households should complete the Census on Sunday 21 March or as soon afterwards. Edit though the leaflet does say you can start early, just perhaps not that early Typical mixed measaging so it does. You expect me to properly read the letter ? Still, as households aren't meant to be mixing until May 17th, seems a bit pointless to follow the tradition of insisting its all done on March 21st. I'm sure a bit of actuarial fiddling with the numbers could be done to adjust for those or have come into or gone out of the world in the interim.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Mar 11, 2021 10:47:32 GMT
Not surprising. Perhaps read the instructions in the letter - all households should complete the Census on Sunday 21 March or as soon afterwards. Edit though the leaflet does say you can start early, just perhaps not that early Typical mixed measaging so it does. You expect me to properly read the letter ? Still, as households aren't meant to be mixing until May 17th, seems a bit pointless to follow the tradition of insisting its all done on March 21st. I'm sure a bit of actuarial fiddling with the numbers could be done to adjust for those or have come into or gone out of the world in the interim. What's the chances the website will crash on 21st March as millions try to login?
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Post by Ace on Mar 11, 2021 11:17:37 GMT
so it does. You expect me to properly read the letter ? Still, as households aren't meant to be mixing until May 17th, seems a bit pointless to follow the tradition of insisting its all done on March 21st. I'm sure a bit of actuarial fiddling with the numbers could be done to adjust for those or have come into or gone out of the world in the interim. What's the chances the website will crash on 21st March as millions try to login? Perhaps they will adopt CrowdProperty's philosophy and we'll each be able to answer 5% of the questions per day! 🙃 We might get to answer 10% some days if it's a really big question. Obviously, if you complete it manually via a paper copy you can do it all at once. 😄
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Mar 11, 2021 11:36:10 GMT
Love those old Census replies . In 1861 there were 32 people resident in my house, in 4 rooms. They knew how to keep warm in those days. No wonder Jesus was born in a barn.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Mar 11, 2021 13:23:26 GMT
the 1911 says 4 adults living in mine in 1911 ( with 2 different surnames, but it is possible from the ages that the younger female is the Daughter of the older couple ). its less than 90 square yards of total floor area and given 3 storeys a lot is taken out by the staircases, i wouldn't want 4 adults in it.
I've been in the house my dad grew up in and can't get my head round how 2 adults and 9 kids lived in it. It had 3 small bedrooms and the sitting room was only about 12 feet square , but i suppose with that many people in it you'd not need heating.
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