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Post by greatboo on Apr 3, 2021 12:13:20 GMT
I see nobody's started a thread on this yet - I guess nobody else can bear to discuss it!
I'm normally pretty positive about Property Partner, but even I have to admit this performance in a housing market that has risen pretty consistently over the past few years is risible.
Of course there's some bad luck with the fire safety issues and the pandemic - but I think there's been a failure of asset allocation with far too many city centre flats - probably because they could buy several at once and it was just less effort than sourcing houses.
Reminds me of mutual fund managers who are paid a fortune and most of them can't even match the market...
Of course I have to put my hand up and take my share of the responsibility - the platform is quite transparent - I knew they were buying mainly flats, and I bought them anyway.
Nice to see a few more dividends starting up again, and some of the student accommodation could be worse considering the pandemic.
It was good to read that "Property Partner is performing well at the corporate level." - but what do you make of the fact that they haven't brought a single new property onto the platform in - what, must be at least a year?
If that doesn't change then AUM will decline as properties are sold in the 5 year process and eventually there won't be enough property for them to continue.
Bit of a sad tale - but keen to hear what you think.
Happy Easter!
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beh
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Post by beh on Apr 3, 2021 16:17:32 GMT
I'm still looking at what happened with other platforms and thinking it could be much worse.
The quarterly updates might not always be good news but I find them vaguely reassuring. They do seem reasonably transparent unless I'm missing something?
Overall down 2.2% if the current valuations are to be believed, unsurprisingly flats and student accommodation is where I've taken the biggest hit. Similarly hard to be convinced they had much of an edge in picking them but the platform always seemed thoughtfully/competently put together so I'm primarily responsible for my choices.
Slightly at a loss. Will they ever go return to buying houses/flats and would there be sufficient interest to fund them even?
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Post by overthehill on Apr 4, 2021 13:01:10 GMT
Property Partner are masters at communication , like many companies they know presentation is more important than reality.
Everyone in the food chain -PP, property management, estate agents, rental agents, valuers, HMRC- are doing very well from this platform except the investors. Some time ago I worked out the AUM fee alone would bring in nearly 1 million a year, based on property value remember. Does anybody believe there has been a genuine urgency to sell empty flats or 5 year exit properties over the last year ? We've had plenty of excuses or just silence, I don't use Facebook so I'm not able to check for holiday statuses at expensive resorts.
As of today, they still haven't sold a single property since the crisis started. Their portfolio value is going in one direction and the housing market is going in the opposite direction.
The recent portfolio update stated an average 4% drop in property value, my property value only dropped 1.7% due to some proactive recent swapping, BUT my portfolio dropped 4%. There wasn't a single sentence in the update to explain how this is possible. I asssume it is due to negative movements in the mortgage arrears and net cash but this is written in transparent ink. Some investors must have been really burned and this is the 2nd time my portfolio value has taken a similar hit. And the dividend has gone from 50pm to a few quid over the last 2 years. I'm heading towards par value after 4.5 years, it's pathetic performance. At current levels it will take me 4 years just to regain the recent drop in value.
Another mistake just like FundingSecure and Lending Works, they are not even losses just a total waste of 5 years, same result as buying premium bonds, i.e. below inflation.
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Post by uksoul on Apr 5, 2021 9:54:15 GMT
I'm glad i sold all my holdings with PP at the beginning of the account fee charging which really eat into returns and reinvested elsewhere. Have a couple of fixed term loans only left with PP which will mature 2022. PP was on the surface a great proposition but the devil is in the detail. Their costing, evaluations and buying decisions in the past are now showing that.
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Post by overthehill on Apr 5, 2021 10:23:23 GMT
I stayed clear of their developments bonds, 10% for a second charge development loan with additional broker fees. Better risk/return rates than that around , e.g. ablrate.
Here's the part from the update which explains why/how my portfolio lost 2.3% unrelated to the physical property revaluations. Under the carpet or transparent, you decide ?
"The financial results disclosed include rental income, property operating and works costs, mortgage interest costs, fees paid to Property Partner, dividends, etc. Since these financials were last reported, rental income across the portfolio has increased by 2.2% and property operating costs have decreased by 8.5%.
Overall, the net cash position of the portfolio is a surplus of 0.1% of property value. This is consistent with the previously reported surplus. The better operating performance was offset by a return to mortgage interest payments and the repayment of mortgage holidays that were taken when the Covid crisis began."
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Post by easterbunni on Apr 5, 2021 10:24:42 GMT
I think if PP earned their money by being shareholders of their own SPVs they would be more interested in getting it right.
There's the freehold for a block of 12 flats with retail on the ground floor up for sale for a couple of mill, 85K income p/a. Anyone want in?!
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Post by uksoul on Apr 5, 2021 11:23:40 GMT
I stayed clear of their developments bonds, 10% for a second charge development loan with additional broker fees. Better risk/return rates than that around , e.g. ablrate.
Here's the part from the update which explains why/how my portfolio lost 2.3% unrelated to the physical property revaluations. Under the carpet or transparent, you decide ?
"The financial results disclosed include rental income, property operating and works costs, mortgage interest costs, fees paid to Property Partner, dividends, etc. Since these financials were last reported, rental income across the portfolio has increased by 2.2% and property operating costs have decreased by 8.5%.
Overall, the net cash position of the portfolio is a surplus of 0.1% of property value. This is consistent with the previously reported surplus. The better operating performance was offset by a return to mortgage interest payments and the repayment of mortgage holidays that were taken when the Covid crisis began."
Their bonds have performed better than their property portfolio i think, no defaults and some even repaid early but i know what you saying on the 2nd charge which i tend to afford as much as possible. They are spinning decline into a postitive with their wording.
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IFISAcava
Member of DD Central
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Post by IFISAcava on Apr 5, 2021 14:33:12 GMT
I'm glad i sold all my holdings with PP at the beginning of the account fee charging which really eat into returns and reinvested elsewhere. Have a couple of fixed term loans only left with PP which will mature 2022. PP was on the surface a great proposition but the devil is in the detail. Their costing, evaluations and buying decisions in the past are now showing that. I sold a third, looking back wish I'd sold more. Thought that the the discounts were too high, and better to sit out a couple of years until properties sold, but the pandemic and reduced valuations has scuppered that. Loss of dividends and high charges has sorted out the rest. Nevertheless, until recently I was still overall in paper profit, now it's just a question of how big is the eventual loss when properties sold.
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Post by uksoul on Apr 5, 2021 16:41:59 GMT
I'm glad i sold all my holdings with PP at the beginning of the account fee charging which really eat into returns and reinvested elsewhere. Have a couple of fixed term loans only left with PP which will mature 2022. PP was on the surface a great proposition but the devil is in the detail. Their costing, evaluations and buying decisions in the past are now showing that. I sold a third, looking back wish I'd sold more. Thought that the the discounts were too high, and better to sit out a couple of years until properties sold, but the pandemic and reduced valuations has scuppered that. Loss of dividends and high charges has sorted out the rest. Nevertheless, until recently I was still overall in paper profit, now it's just a question of how big is the eventual loss when properties sold. My initlal thoughts were the same, wait it out until properties sold but a chance to triple my returns via divesting led me to sell. Waiting it out until the property is sold is a good option but don't be afraid to sell for a short term loss but make a long term gain.
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Post by Ace on Apr 5, 2021 20:09:20 GMT
I'd also decided that PP weren't viable for smaller investors since the introduction of account fees. I decided not to sell up as I'd only invested in 2 properties. One looked great value and the other was paying regular income, so I decided to let the investments run down naturally.
This thread caused me to check my account to see how the revaluations went and I was very pleasantly surprised to see that my account was bucking the trend. My total XIRR has risen from 5.7% to 10.5%. The latest valuation saw a 14.4% rise in account value. All complete luck on my part, mainly due to investing in a certain shiny Fort on a hill.
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Post by overthehill on Apr 7, 2021 7:24:26 GMT
I stayed clear of their developments bonds, 10% for a second charge development loan with additional broker fees. Better risk/return rates than that around , e.g. ablrate.
Here's the part from the update which explains why/how my portfolio lost 2.3% unrelated to the physical property revaluations. Under the carpet or transparent, you decide ?
"The financial results disclosed include rental income, property operating and works costs, mortgage interest costs, fees paid to Property Partner, dividends, etc. Since these financials were last reported, rental income across the portfolio has increased by 2.2% and property operating costs have decreased by 8.5%.
Overall, the net cash position of the portfolio is a surplus of 0.1% of property value. This is consistent with the previously reported surplus. The better operating performance was offset by a return to mortgage interest payments and the repayment of mortgage holidays that were taken when the Covid crisis began."
In the pursuit of transparency a portion (that I'm not going to work out for each property and sum) of the 'lost 2.3% portfolio value' is due to the mortgage effect on a falling (and rising ) physical property value e.g. if a 100k property with a 50k mortgage drops 5% to 95k, the portfolio or share value will drop 10%. It depends on the mortgage/property value ratio and the number of properties with a mortgage in your portfolio. It can be ignored as long your property regains its original value and the mortgage doesn't change, shouldn't be a problem !
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Post by overthehill on Apr 7, 2021 15:53:06 GMT
I'd also decided that PP weren't viable for smaller investors since the introduction of account fees. I decided not to sell up as I'd only invested in 2 properties. One looked great value and the other was paying regular income, so I decided to let the investments run down naturally. This thread caused me to check my account to see how the revaluations went and I was very pleasantly surprised to see that my account was bucking the trend. My total XIRR has risen from 5.7% to 10.5%. The latest valuation saw a 14.4% rise in account value. All complete luck on my part, mainly due to investing in a certain shiny Fort on a hill.
That shiny fort was a geologists equivalent of finding a meteorite in Property Partners car park, you arrived just as the fireball was shooting through the sky. I'm sure it placated a few investors who saw the potential and invested heavily and rubbed salt in the wounds of the rest. I had already stopped investing by that time. It supposedly returned 98% annualised return.
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Post by Ace on Apr 7, 2021 16:06:04 GMT
I'd also decided that PP weren't viable for smaller investors since the introduction of account fees. I decided not to sell up as I'd only invested in 2 properties. One looked great value and the other was paying regular income, so I decided to let the investments run down naturally. This thread caused me to check my account to see how the revaluations went and I was very pleasantly surprised to see that my account was bucking the trend. My total XIRR has risen from 5.7% to 10.5%. The latest valuation saw a 14.4% rise in account value. All complete luck on my part, mainly due to investing in a certain shiny Fort on a hill.
That shiny fort was a geologists equivalent of finding a meteorite in Property Partners car park, you arrived just as the fireball was shooting through the sky. I'm sure it placated a few investors who saw the potential and invested heavily and rubbed salt in the wounds of the rest. I had already stopped investing by that time. It supposedly returned 98% annualised return.
My apologies. I didn't mean to gloat or add salt. I have full sympathy for those suffering losses as I expect to suffer some myself on other platforms, though BP is my only crystallised platform loss so far. As I said, it was pure luck on my part.
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Post by andrewrt on Apr 24, 2021 15:32:15 GMT
Interesting to see the secondary prices on the platform have barely changed, despite a set of results that disappointed.
I can only rationalise this as "selling the rumour - buying the fact" - ie the valuations at least give assurance that it's not even worse than it could have been.
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sd2
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Post by sd2 on May 7, 2021 11:25:56 GMT
I have decided to just ignore my money in property partner. I will simply wait it out. I am not in a hurry to get £2500 or so back. Annoyed they are not selling off the flats in Gainsborough (the maltings). Its not like they are getting no interest. I bet they could sell them all off individually within 2 years. I have made one mistake i sold all the student accommodation at a loss. Its not like I didn't realise that covid wouldn't last for ever. Anyway property partner is my only bad p2p. Got to have at least one dud! Urmm not sure it's a requirement!!
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