cwah
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Post by cwah on Jun 14, 2021 21:06:39 GMT
Hello, I invested a large amount of my money in Pelatro 2 years ago when I bought at peak (80p). Now the stock is worth about half as much and they're planning to do another share placing. I'm expecting another drop soon. Something that would soften the blow is something I saw from their RNS: polaris.brighterir.com/public/pelatro/news/rns/story/x49d7kwI'm not clear how AIM works and even less how to qualify to EIS? Is my current share bought in LSE 2 years ago already qualifying to the tax relief? Or should I sell my current share and buy them back (but how?) somewhere benefiting from the EIS tax break?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 14, 2021 21:23:49 GMT
Hello, I invested a large amount of my money in Pelatro 2 years ago when I bought at peak (80p). Now the stock is worth about half as much and they're planning to do another share placing. I'm expecting another drop soon. Something that would soften the blow is something I saw from their RNS: polaris.brighterir.com/public/pelatro/news/rns/story/x49d7kwI'm not clear how AIM works and even less how to qualify to EIS? Is my current share bought in LSE 2 years ago already qualifying to the tax relief? Or should I sell my current share and buy them back (but how?) somewhere benefiting from the EIS tax break? to read up on eis read this EIS
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cwah
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Post by cwah on Jun 14, 2021 21:26:17 GMT
to read up on eis read this EIS
However, based on the limited info you've given so far, I expect the answer to be no, double no, and triple no. Sorry, but no for what? I just want to sell and buy back as EIS to benefit from the EIS tax break when it goes down more...?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 15, 2021 0:18:27 GMT
to read up on eis read this EIS
However, based on the limited info you've given so far, I expect the answer to be no, double no, and triple no. Sorry, but no for what? I just want to sell and buy back as EIS to benefit from the EIS tax break when it goes down more...? That's not what EIS is for. You can't.
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cwah
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Post by cwah on Jun 15, 2021 0:40:25 GMT
Sorry, but no for what? I just want to sell and buy back as EIS to benefit from the EIS tax break when it goes down more...? That's not what EIS is for. You can't. Why can't I just buy the share via EIS? Isn't it an investment vehicle?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 15, 2021 0:51:16 GMT
Why can't I just buy the share via EIS? Isn't it an investment vehicle? Just read the link bracknellboy provided up a few posts.
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corto
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Post by corto on Jun 15, 2021 7:42:41 GMT
You only get tax relief on fresh shares. The company has to register the shares with HMRC and issue a certificate if HMRC accepts the issue. If you have the certificate you can claim for relief in your tax return (usually same or next year; it's very easy) You need to hold for three years. If you sell earlier you have to pay the tax relief back. If the shares loose value you may be able to claim additional tax relief for losses.
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corto
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Post by corto on Jun 15, 2021 7:45:55 GMT
to read up on eis read this EIS
However, based on the limited info you've given so far, I expect the answer to be no, double no, and triple no. Sorry, but no for what? I just want to sell and buy back as EIS to benefit from the EIS tax break when it goes down more...? Why would you buy something that goes down?
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corto
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Post by corto on Jun 15, 2021 10:57:41 GMT
Hello, I invested a large amount of my money in Pelatro 2 years ago when I bought at peak (80p). Now the stock is worth about half as much and they're planning to do another share placing. I'm expecting another drop soon. Something that would soften the blow is something I saw from their RNS: polaris.brighterir.com/public/pelatro/news/rns/story/x49d7kwI'm not clear how AIM works and even less how to qualify to EIS? Is my current share bought in LSE 2 years ago already qualifying to the tax relief? Or should I sell my current share and buy them back (but how?) somewhere benefiting from the EIS tax break? I don't know anything about Pelatro. But after I read your post first time I thought it strange that a company that enters AIM should be eligible for EIS. EIS provides seed/growth funding for start-ups, AIM is a stock market for small and medium size businesses, many of which probably got EIS when they were young. So I read your paragraph above again. It looks like Pelatro got EIS (and/or VCT) status in the past. In that case you should check their EIS status, get the certificate and see if you can still claim the tax relief (you need the registration number from the certificate and perhaps some more info for your tax return; HMRC can also ask you for the certificate if it pleases them); if you bought 2 years ago, claiming relief may not be possible anymore. I am pretty sure one can claim one year back; 2 years I don't know. The tax hotline (HMRC) should be able to tell you. I also now suspect your current shares get automatically converted into ("be admitted to") AIM shares. In that case you could trade them at the AIM, the ones you currently hold would probably be hard to sell anywhere. It is possible that you have to do something to convert the shares. I also don't know what trading the shares at AIM would mean to any previous EIS tax reliefs. The three year minimum holding time may still apply.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 15, 2021 11:42:26 GMT
Hello, I invested a large amount of my money in Pelatro 2 years ago when I bought at peak (80p). Now the stock is worth about half as much and they're planning to do another share placing. I'm expecting another drop soon. Something that would soften the blow is something I saw from their RNS: polaris.brighterir.com/public/pelatro/news/rns/story/x49d7kwI'm not clear how AIM works and even less how to qualify to EIS? Is my current share bought in LSE 2 years ago already qualifying to the tax relief? Or should I sell my current share and buy them back (but how?) somewhere benefiting from the EIS tax break? I don't know anything about Pelatro. But after I read your post first time I thought it strange that a company that enters AIM should be eligible for EIS. EIS provides seed/growth funding for start-ups, AIM is a stock market for small and medium size businesses, many of which probably got EIS when they were young. So I read your paragraph above again. It looks like Pelatro got EIS (and/or VCT) status in the past. In that case you should check their EIS status, get the certificate and see if you can still claim the tax relief (you need the registration number from the certificate and perhaps some more info for your tax return; HMRC can also ask you for the certificate if it pleases them); if you bought 2 years ago, claiming relief may not be possible anymore. I am pretty sure one can claim one year back; 2 years I don't know. The tax hotline (HMRC) should be able to tell you. I also now suspect your current shares get automatically converted into ("be admitted to") AIM shares. In that case you could trade them at the AIM, the ones you currently hold would probably be hard to sell anywhere. It is possible that you have to do something to convert the shares. I also don't know what trading the shares at AIM would mean to any previous EIS tax reliefs. The three year minimum holding time may still apply. Probably need to read the RNS but seems to me that it is issuing both new general equity & EIS/VCT shares. Pelatro appears to already be AIM listed, this is not an entry onto the exchange but an admission of additional shares. "Conditional Placing to raise £2.15 million through the issue of 5,375,000 New Ordinary Shares at the Issue Price of 40 pence per New Ordinary Share · Approximately £0.68 million raised through the placing of EIS/VCT Placing Shares and approximately £1.47 million through the placing of General Placing Shares" AIUI Shares listed on AIM do qualify for EIS as HMRC does not consider companies on AIM as quoted companies for this purpose. AIM EISThe OP may be able to claim EIS on his shares but I note that not all shares are EIS eligible (there was a previous placing last year where only some were EIS eligible) Probably needs to get advice from either Pelatro investor relations or his broker on what type of shares he holds and whether they are eligible or convertible Edit I suppose the other question is if the EIS shares are being to issued to retail and if so who. It seems to me that the placing is not available to retail investors and retail investors would have to participate in the additional fund raising via PrimaryBid. The PrimaryBid offer closed this morning and was only ordinary shares not EIS.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 15, 2021 13:14:49 GMT
Probably need to read the RNS but seems to me that it is issuing both new general equity & EIS/VCT shares. Pelatro appears to already be AIM listed, this is not an entry onto the exchange but an admission of additional shares. "Conditional Placing to raise £2.15 million through the issue of 5,375,000 New Ordinary Shares at the Issue Price of 40 pence per New Ordinary Share · Approximately £0.68 million raised through the placing of EIS/VCT Placing Shares and approximately £1.47 million through the placing of General Placing Shares" AIUI Shares listed on AIM do qualify for EIS as HMRC does not consider companies on AIM as quoted companies for this purpose. AIM EISThe OP may be able to claim EIS on his shares but I note that not all shares are EIS eligible (there was a previous placing last year where only some were EIS eligible) Probably needs to get advice from either Pelatro investor relations or his broker on what type of shares he holds and whether they are eligible or convertibleIf the original shares were EIS or SEIS eligible, I would have expected the purchaser to have been informed of that. But under the circumstances, makes sense to ask. However, On the tax relief front, you must claim the tax relief either in the year of purchase or the prior tax year (i.e. you can treat it has having been made in the earlier year). You cannot however carry the relief forward. I had not picked up that the idea was to sell old and buy new shares. I had interpreted this - based on teh limited information posted - that it was the existing shares, including EIS shares, that were being listed on AIM. Not a new placement.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 15, 2021 13:43:32 GMT
Probably need to read the RNS but seems to me that it is issuing both new general equity & EIS/VCT shares. Pelatro appears to already be AIM listed, this is not an entry onto the exchange but an admission of additional shares. "Conditional Placing to raise £2.15 million through the issue of 5,375,000 New Ordinary Shares at the Issue Price of 40 pence per New Ordinary Share · Approximately £0.68 million raised through the placing of EIS/VCT Placing Shares and approximately £1.47 million through the placing of General Placing Shares" AIUI Shares listed on AIM do qualify for EIS as HMRC does not consider companies on AIM as quoted companies for this purpose. AIM EISThe OP may be able to claim EIS on his shares but I note that not all shares are EIS eligible (there was a previous placing last year where only some were EIS eligible) Probably needs to get advice from either Pelatro investor relations or his broker on what type of shares he holds and whether they are eligible or convertibleIf the original shares were EIS or SEIS eligible, I would have expected the purchaser to have been informed of that. But under the circumstances, makes sense to ask. However, On the tax relief front, you must claim the tax relief either in the year of purchase or the prior tax year (i.e. you can treat it has having been made in the earlier year). You cannot however carry the relief forward. I had not picked up that the idea was to sell old and buy new shares. I had interpreted this - based on teh limited information posted - that it was the existing shares, including EIS shares, that were being listed on AIM. Not a new placement. True. I got distracted by the technicalities of eligibility and forgot the practicalities ie they might be eligible but any eligibility would have expired anyway
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corto
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Post by corto on Jun 15, 2021 16:40:51 GMT
Given the tax advantage is gone anyway he can sell and buy new shares.. and will get the EIS tax advantage on the new shares.
Whether he should sell is a different question. I had a look. 40p seems much discounted, so there is a chance of short-term gains should the share rebounce. On the other hand it is unclear how healthy this business is. He would have to hold three years for the EIS benefits. Could be worth it. I'll stay away.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 17:18:34 GMT
Avoiding the whole tax thing can I just ask the basic
Going forward with your next investment you have two slices of money. The bit you don't want to lose and the bit you are betting, lets call that A+B.
How are you planning to decide how big is B before you sell next time?
Looking at this investment I have no idea how I would choose it so I'm really interested how you would, especially since the last time A+B fell by +50% and you still didn't sell. Is B=60% of A+B or is it larger? Just what proportion are you betting?
Secondly how much money do you expect to make A+B +30%, or 100%?
What benefit is worth such a large stake?
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cwah
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Post by cwah on Jun 15, 2021 20:27:39 GMT
Thanks guys.
So best is for me to contact the broker to find out more? I'm with interactive broker and I have no clue about AIM. It just says it's listed in the LSE.
Apparently the listing has been arranged by Cenkos? I don't even know what would be the process for that? Shall I just go to cenkos website and click on contact? (https://www.cenkos.com/)
@bobo I've made mistake to put too much money in. It was when I started. I didn't do enough analysis and I've been shafted too many times by the directors... some of their action: - Bought couple of expensive cars for $240k with company money - His brother sold all his shares when it came all time high - They've been doing a 2nd dilution in exactly 1 year after - They always inflate their earning potential then when they share their earning report it's way below expectation - They have absurd director salary $220k for him and same for his brother. So almost half a million in pay for themselves while the company do about $6M in revenu. So they take about 10% of the company cash while not making money
These are load of warning I should have looked, but didn't. I've lost a lot of trust in these guys and I've sold 50% of my shares at big loss. Gives me tears in my eyes...
But still keeping the other half because it has potential to be a multi-baggers... The business in principle has a great moat (specialised in telecom only), is in theory required by telecom who aren't managing to make more money and their new idea of monetisation could make good money as well.
I do not trade, I invest.
But you are right, this large stake is a mistake. I shouldn't have put that much. I realise my mistake now.
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