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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2021 16:18:50 GMT
you say potato... If you really don't understand what Tesla did (high end battery driven cars in a community that loves petrol cars) in a market where a new entrant was very rare if never, then I give up.
however the likes of BMW did nothing in 32 years and their weak input so far has only been as a result of competitor pressure no responsability, no courage, no bravery. In fact just little accountants twidling their calculators in the corner. When I see the brute car racing I just remember it is to cover-up the pitiful companies behind them.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 7, 2021 17:44:56 GMT
If you really don't understand what Tesla did Oh, I do... Hype and marketing. It's what Musk brings to the party, along with a shedload of capital investment. You don't think the i3 is a very clever bit of lightweight design? Carbon-reinforced plastic monocoque...? The Model 3 is steel, for goodness' sakes. You don't think the i8 was bold? Dismal failure in the market, of course, but definitely bold. Did you know about the pair of electric 1602s used to lead the marathon at the 1972 Munich Olympics? Or the electric conversions of E30 3-series in the 80s? Or the 1991 E1 concept? Or the 600 electric Minis leased to the public in 2009? Almost every mainstream manufacturer has had this stuff on the backburner for YEARS. And, yes, there's been dead-ends while they've waited for battery technology to catch up - especially hydrogen, both combustion and fuel-cell. Without Tesla, would we be seeing the current crop of EVs in production now? Yes, I really think we would.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 7:19:12 GMT
"Hype and marketing. It's what Musk brings to the party, along with a shedload of capital investment."
You are seriously thinking that BMW and Ferrari etc don't have this?
Yes I seriously think that without Tesla we would still be looking at IC. I seriously think that the mainstream manufacturers have been wrecking the planet for financial gain and I seriously think the F1 racing teams have nothing to be proud about and everything to hang their heads in shame. I have many friends who love F1 but sorry guys it ain't enough.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 8, 2021 7:39:25 GMT
"Hype and marketing. It's what Musk brings to the party, along with a shedload of capital investment." You are seriously thinking that BMW and Ferrari etc don't have this? Not in the same league, no. A car manufacturer that's built fewer than 1.5m cars total in their entire existence... with a cumulative net loss measured in the billions... yet with a market capitalisation more than 12x as much as a (relatively small by industry standards) direct rival that built nearly twice that number of cars last year alone, making $5bn profit in the process...? Tesla is not priced as a car manufacturer. It's priced as a bubble. Bubbles never last. There's been an entire thread here in the last few days based entirely on somebody betting that this one will.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 8:35:53 GMT
You may well be right about Tesla not lasting. My key concern is that IC must not.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 8, 2021 8:59:45 GMT
You may well be right about Tesla not lasting. My key concern is that IC must not. That's in the hands of leglsiators, not just the market. But the market is certainly voting with its feet now that the mainstream manufacturers are releasing properly-developed, properly-built cars in volume, rather than leaving it to mediocre products from the niches.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 11:17:10 GMT
I don't agree it is up to the legislators only. We all make decisions everyday and the big car players make those decisions everyday. For 32 years it has been "sell diesel" and "sell petrol" cars every days and still they make that decision. Think about that. 250 days a year they decided sell things that hurt humanity. 32 * 250= 8000 decisions. They are grown up men and women and they bottled it. They continue to bottle it. No one yet has withdrawn their last FF vehicle. All that marketing, all those sales people, all those adverts world wide. Pushing fossil fuels.
They are even supportive of such stupid ideas as hybrid (you use batteries but we stick a petrol engine in as well because we know you can't be bothered to charge this thing)
You are being too generous to them.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 8, 2021 12:45:52 GMT
I don't agree it is up to the legislators only. We all make decisions everyday and the big car players make those decisions everyday. For 32 years it has been "sell diesel" and "sell petrol" cars every days and still they make that decision. Think about that. 250 days a year they decided sell things that hurt humanity. 32 * 250= 8000 decisions. They are grown up men and women and they bottled it. They continue to bottle it. No one yet has withdrawn their last FF vehicle. All that marketing, all those sales people, all those adverts world wide. Pushing fossil fuels.
They are even supportive of such stupid ideas as hybrid (you use batteries but we stick a petrol engine in as well because we know you can't be bothered to charge this thing)
You are being too generous to them.
What drives markets? Product availability, or customer demand? If Toyota, say, (the world's largest car maker by output - north of 10.5m vehicles in a normal year) stopped selling fossil fuel cars tomorrow, would one fewer fossil fuel car be sold? Or one more EV? No. Somebody else would simply sell those fossil fuel cars to Toyota's ex-customers. So what stops fossil fuel cars being marketed? A cartel of manufacturers? Nope. Legislation... In the meantime, manufacturers can compete to introduce products that make customers WANT to buy EVs instead of fossil fuel-powered. What Tesla did was to be slightly ahead of the curve in that - but with products that simply aren't mass-market choices. Somebody who wants a Tesla but buys a Fiesta is not a realistic Tesla customer - but they now have the choice of several viable EV Fiesta-market choices from several mainstream manufacturers.
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