keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jun 7, 2022 13:01:25 GMT
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james100
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Post by james100 on Jun 7, 2022 13:08:49 GMT
Hmmm, so 41% of the last night's electorate (Tory MP population) votes for substantial change => resounding victory for status quo and dissenters must be ignored in the name of democracy. But we all know it's unsustainable.
Yet if 37% of the electorate voted for substantial change (say as 51.9% on a 72.2% turnout) then the mandate for change *would* be crystal clear, bring it on and btw you're bad to even question it. Just do it. OK.
I'm half trolling (sorry, almost), but more making the case for compulsory voting in situations with binding simple majorities...and pondering that votes don't really matter unless they can deliver on what people voted for, so thresholds are key too. In this case, if even a 59% "confidence" level means he's on his last legs why is the threshold 50%? Is it to encourage a half way house event to embolden other rebels? If so, why is there still a 1 year lag before a rerun is permitted? What am I missing? Why doesn't it make sense đ
My disillusionment with UK party politics seems to be complete...
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 7, 2022 15:35:00 GMT
So he can afford ÂŁ52 a day for nursery fees, but not the ÂŁ257 fine?
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 7, 2022 15:52:48 GMT
Presumably he was offered some kind of "penalty fare" to pay as a civil matter before it went as far as criminal court?
No, he definitely should not go to prison if he doesn't pay. Can't the court order a portion of his salary to be repaid? Worst case, community service.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 7, 2022 17:17:17 GMT
No, he definitely should not go to prison if he doesn't pay. Any prison sentence will not be for not paying. It'll be for contempt of court.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 7, 2022 17:45:56 GMT
No, he definitely should not go to prison if he doesn't pay. Any prison sentence will not be for not paying. It'll be for contempt of court. Indeed and IMO being in contempt of a judge is sometimes quite reasonable. Prison for refusing to pay two hundred quid because the beneficiary happens to wear a wig is too much.
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Jun 7, 2022 19:18:40 GMT
Any prison sentence will not be for not paying. It'll be for contempt of court. Indeed and IMO being in contempt of a judge is sometimes quite reasonable. Prison for refusing to pay two hundred quid because the beneficiary happens to wear a wig is too much. If it was a one off, a prison sentence is very harsh, if he's been doing this a lot and then won't/cant pay the fine you have to do something or everyone reckons they can get away with it and even if you get caught there is no real enforceable penalty.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 7, 2022 19:46:20 GMT
Indeed and IMO being in contempt of a judge is sometimes quite reasonable. Prison for refusing to pay two hundred quid because the beneficiary happens to wear a wig is too much. If it was a one off, a prison sentence is very harsh, if he's been doing this a lot and then won't/cant pay the fine you have to do something or everyone reckons they can get away with it and even if you get caught there is no real enforceable penalty. Surely you can take his salary (or his benefits) ? AND make him do some litter picking....
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travolta
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Post by travolta on Jun 7, 2022 19:52:45 GMT
I felt a bit sorry for him .Maybe a benefactor will come forward and pay his fine . It all sounded a bit draconian. Avoiding paying fare was endemic when I was a youngster. School children had half passes and I remember being slung off a bus because I forgot mine . I was on my way to my Maths GCE and ran a mile in 12 mins to get there on time.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 7, 2022 21:31:16 GMT
Any prison sentence will not be for not paying. It'll be for contempt of court. Indeed and IMO being in contempt of a judge is sometimes quite reasonable. Prison for refusing to pay two hundred quid because the beneficiary happens to wear a wig is too much. It's contempt of court, right? Not contempt of a or the judge per se? So what's really happening is that somebody is being punished for showing contempt towards a system that the vast majority of us (are expected to) respect, no? And I doubt, very much indeed, that the beneficiary wears a wig.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 7, 2022 21:41:01 GMT
Indeed and IMO being in contempt of a judge is sometimes quite reasonable. Prison for refusing to pay two hundred quid because the beneficiary happens to wear a wig is too much. It's contempt of court, right? Not contempt of a or the judge per se? So what's really happening is that somebody is being punished for showing contempt towards a system that the vast majority of us (are expected to) respect, no? And I doubt, very much indeed, that the beneficiary wears a wig. But punishable by prison ? This is in a country where I could go and smash a random person the face and almost certainly not face prison as long as the person recovered. How can you compare the two crimes? One of "disrespect" for a system and another of animal violence? that the system has been set up to deal witrh?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 7, 2022 21:50:16 GMT
What if it was the nth time that this hypothetical person had displayed contempt of court / for the rulings of a court?
What if the person who smashed somebody in the face showed genuine contrition?
etc
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 8, 2022 7:14:14 GMT
It's contempt of court, right? Not contempt of a or the judge per se? So what's really happening is that somebody is being punished for showing contempt towards a system that the vast majority of us (are expected to) respect, no? And I doubt, very much indeed, that the beneficiary wears a wig. But punishable by prison ? This is in a country where I could go and smash a random person the face and almost certainly not face prison as long as the person recovered. Woah, hold on a moment... www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/contempt-court-reporting-restrictions-and-restrictions-public-access-hearings"Section 14 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 provides for a maximum period of committal of 2 years in the Crown Court. ... The maximum penalty the magistratesâ court can impose is one monthâs imprisonment or a fine up to ÂŁ2,500."www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/outlines/assault/"Common assault is when a person inflicts violence on someone else or makes them think they are going to be attacked. It does not have to involve physical violence. Threatening words or a raised fist is enough for the crime to have been committed provided the victim thinks that they are about to be attacked. Spitting at someone is another example.
Actual bodily harm (ABH) means the assault has caused some hurt or injury to the victim. Physical injury does not need to be serious or permanent but must be more than âtriflingâ or âtransientâ, which means it must at least cause minor injuries or pain or discomfort. Psychological harm can also be covered by this offence, but this must be more than just fear or anxiety.
Grievous bodily harm (GBH) means the assault has caused serious physical harm. It does not have to be permanent or dangerous. For example, a broken bone would amount to GBH â in some cases a broken bone might lead to permanent disability but, in others, it might heal without leaving any long-term effects. GBH can also include psychiatric injury or someone passing on an infection, for example through sexual activity. ... Common assault: the maximum sentence is six monthsâ custody if the assault is against an emergency worker, the maximum sentence is one yearâs custody if the assault is racially or religiously aggravated, the maximum sentence is two yearsâ custody
Actual bodily harm: the maximum sentence is five yearsâ custody if the assault is racially or religiously aggravated, the maximum sentence is seven yearsâ custody
Grievous bodily harm or wounding: the maximum sentence is five yearsâ custody. if the assault is racially or religiously aggravated, the maximum sentence is seven yearsâ custody if the assault was committed with intent to cause GBH/wounding then the maximum sentence is life imprisonment""Smashing somebody in the face" would be ABH, at the very least. GBH if their nose was broken - yes, even if they recovered. If the person was indeed random, that's an aggravating factor which will increase the sentence. Contempt of court is on top of the sentence for the original crime. If the penalty for disrespecting the judicial system is lighter than that for the original crime, then the judicial system carries no weight. See also perverting the course of justice... Somebody is massively unlikely to actually "go to prison" for this kind of contempt - they're more likely to simply get a night or two in the police station or court holding cells until they realise the stupidity of their actions. What's the point of merely fining them, if the contempt is a refusal to pay a fine? The only time they're going to get a serious sentence is if they continually refuse to engage in the judicial system. Take a high-profile recent person in serial contempt... Tummy Yacketty-Lenin-Rubbinson. 2017 - given suspended sentence for contempt for breaching reporting ban over a case - www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/far-right-activist-spared-jail-126340/2018 - jailed for contempt for breaching reporting ban over a case - www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/29/edl-founder-tommy-robinson-jailed-13-months2019 - jailed for contempt for breaching reporting ban over a case - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48950672This year - awaiting trial for contempt after refusing to attend high court to give information on his finances over a libel action he lost - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-61080778If jail is not an option for contempt, then how does the system deal with slugs like that?
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 8, 2022 8:44:40 GMT
If jail is not an option for contempt, then how does the system deal with slugs like that? I always thought the old fashioned punishments were the best.
Bring back the ducking stool and the stocks. Quick, cheap and effective.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 8, 2022 8:54:13 GMT
If jail is not an option for contempt, then how does the system deal with slugs like that? I always thought the old fashioned punishments were the best.
Bring back the ducking stool and the stocks. Quick, cheap and effective.
Are we still talking about Johnson? If so I'm all for it!
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