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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Oct 2, 2021 13:28:05 GMT
I was hoping to read some insight on here following Ablrate publishing the Q&A video. Does no response mean people generally don't understand/like the loan? I would describe it more as a talking and nodding session myself. Not even an angle poise lamp for window dressing.
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macq
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Post by macq on Oct 2, 2021 13:45:39 GMT
I was hoping to read some insight on here following Ablrate publishing the Q&A video. Does no response mean people generally don't understand/like the loan? i understand it (but probably not completely) as much as i need to know that its not for me i.e the already mentioned to complicated with to many strings to follow between borrower/spv & trustee and parent company in many locations and put options etc etc.To me it has moved well away from p2p and towards a complicated financial product and if this was laid out on say the MSE forum it might well compared to another product if not unfairly - but i am sure for some people it will be a good idea and Abl must have checked with the regulators to know they could do the loan and offer to a p2p customer As a different example and i understand its not quite the same as this loan - and not One i am in or would suggest as low risk - but a quick look at HL for a "debt" fund with a large investment house and chosen at random could give you a near 6% yield with full liquidity in a 600m investment trust code TFIF (but its falls and highs in price over 5 years show the risk) also other IT or funds doing the same - which for me work better to invest in high yield bonds/debt offerings
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Balder
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Post by Balder on Oct 2, 2021 14:05:19 GMT
I was hoping to read some insight on here following Ablrate publishing the Q&A video. Does no response mean people generally don't understand/like the loan? i understand it (but probably not completely) as much as i need to know that its not for me i.e the already mentioned to complicated with to many strings to follow between borrower/spv & trustee and parent company in many locations and put options etc etc.To me it has moved well away from p2p and towards a complicated financial product and if this was laid out on say the MSE forum it might well compared to another product if not unfairly - but i am sure for some people it will be a good idea and Abl must have checked with the regulators to know they could do the loan and offer to a p2p customer As a different example and i understand its not quite the same as this loan - and not One i am in or would suggest as low risk - but a quick look at HL for a "debt" fund with a large investment house and chosen at random could give you a near 6% yield with full liquidity in a 600m investment trust code TFIF (but its falls and highs in price over 5 years show the risk) also other IT or funds doing the same - which for me work better to invest in high yield bonds/debt offerings Question for ablrate did you pass this offering via the FCA and if not why not? Thanks
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Post by Ace on Oct 2, 2021 15:27:17 GMT
I realise that I'm swimming against the tide, but I thought the video was a useful additional explanation of the offering. I think that 8% is fair enough given the security offered, and am happy to hold some of this as part of a well diversified P2P portfolio. It's not one I'm excited enough about to add new funds to my account for, but I'll happily pick some up from repayments if there's nothing better on offer at the time rather than leave the funds idle.
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macq
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Post by macq on Oct 2, 2021 17:33:26 GMT
I realise that I'm swimming against the tide, but I thought the video was a useful additional explanation of the offering. I think that 8% is fair enough given the security offered, and am happy to hold some of this as part of a well diversified P2P portfolio. It's not one I'm excited enough about to add new funds to my account for, but I'll happily pick some up from repayments if there's nothing better on offer at the time rather than leave the funds idle. Swimming against the tide you may well end up being right about the offering as it is certainly interesting.But with the 8% for the security i would tend to disagree.In my eyes i see it this way With say a property fund v an Abl property loan - the fund may well have a yield of say 4% and a chance of growth invested in many assets with One layer between you and the assets but is lower risk.With an Abl property loan you are investing in only One asset so you get 13% for the extra risk and for all intents and purposes there is also One layer between you and the asset With a Bond or Bond fund v This loan - you could buy your own bond or bond fund with a yield of 6% - 8% with either no layer on your own or One layer between you and the bonds with a fund With the Abl loan there is a bond/debenture issued by the company being borrowed against with many layers between you and the asset but still only paying 8% as above but with seemingly more risk to me
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huxs
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Post by huxs on Oct 6, 2021 7:29:37 GMT
I realise that I'm swimming against the tide, but I thought the video was a useful additional explanation of the offering. I think that 8% is fair enough given the security offered, and am happy to hold some of this as part of a well diversified P2P portfolio. It's not one I'm excited enough about to add new funds to my account for, but I'll happily pick some up from repayments if there's nothing better on offer at the time rather than leave the funds idle. Swimming against the tide you may well end up being right about the offering as it is certainly interesting.But with the 8% for the security i would tend to disagree.In my eyes i see it this way With say a property fund v an Abl property loan - the fund may well have a yield of say 4% and a chance of growth invested in many assets with One layer between you and the assets but is lower risk.With an Abl property loan you are investing in only One asset so you get 13% for the extra risk and for all intents and purposes there is also One layer between you and the asset With a Bond or Bond fund v This loan - you could buy your own bond or bond fund with a yield of 6% - 8% with either no layer on your own or One layer between you and the bonds with a fund With the Abl loan there is a bond/debenture issued by the company being borrowed against with many layers between you and the asset but still only paying 8% as above but with seemingly more risk to me I do now understand the loan which is a nice start and in my simple opinion it is a sensible proposal but it looks like 8% is not sufficient for most investors and therefore seems unlikely to fill which is a shame as AB have obviously lined this up to be the first of many and a different product for us investors to diversify into.
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GreenZero
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Post by GreenZero on Oct 6, 2021 7:55:19 GMT
I agree regarding the level of return being slightly too low on this one.
Something I think Abl had an inkling about when they first mentioned and floated the idea of this loan to us in a post/note.
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blender
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Post by blender on Oct 6, 2021 9:21:05 GMT
I agree regarding the level of return being slightly too low on this one. Something I think Abl had an inkling about when they first mentioned and floated the idea of this loan to us in a post/note. True. Retail lenders, including me, take more notice of the interest rate of a self select loan rather than its place in a portfolio of loans held to term that over years is expected to give a level of return. That's because many of us look to liquidity and the SM, rather than the eventual repayment of the capital. And liquidity and ASMX are also ablrate's stated keys to the future of retail p2p. An 8% loan has to be very solid to compete with the normal 13% loans for the funds of SM purchasers. For example, I have a chunk in 159 at 11%, which was questioned on launch despite having a first charge on property (I'm not going to talk about valuations and LTVs) and despite having retained interest. It was only a 12 month loan and so I would look to start trading it away soon, even a little below par. So would I sell 159 at 11% and buy this one at 8% with a view to trading it in a year or so? I think I will wait and see.
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withnell
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Post by withnell on Oct 6, 2021 9:46:55 GMT
Ultimately works out as holders selling their bonds at 50%, but retaining the upside of a 40% topup (90% buyback) if the company is successful. Given the bonds are publicly tradeable, why is selling on the market not a viable option?
I'm assuming that G*** will loan the money on to the bondholders, if that loan to the underlying holders could be pursued in the event of bond default then I'd be more than happy to pile more in, but it is unclear if this route is available. Sadly the video only covered questions at more of a marketing level rather than nitty gritty!
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Oct 6, 2021 10:32:48 GMT
Ultimately works out as holders selling their bonds at 50%, but retaining the upside of a 40% topup (90% buyback) if the company is successful. Given the bonds are publicly tradeable, why is selling on the market not a viable option? I'm assuming that G*** will loan the money on to the bondholders, if that loan to the underlying holders could be pursued in the event of bond default then I'd be more than happy to pile more in, but it is unclear if this route is available. Sadly the video only covered questions at more of a marketing level rather than nitty gritty! A cynical person might suggest the answer to the first part of your post is that nobody is willing to buy them. They might further suggest that the companies having been acquired in this way (why?) are not happy and that these loans are a form of appeasement. Fortunately I am not a cynical person and the point made upstream by blender is the reason I have no interest, these would merely sit unloved on the SM (more so if the huge fee is introduced) and I am not keen to spend 3 years wondering how they would actually be repaid.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 6, 2021 11:40:07 GMT
Really needs a diagram illustrating the structure and money flows but there seem to be pieces missing. Transactional relationship between G & the director bondholders are undefined, purchase, collateralised loan, buyback. Group is issuing bonds to U for G in exchange for what?
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GreenZero
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Post by GreenZero on Nov 20, 2021 11:44:50 GMT
Interesting admin note....
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criston
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Post by criston on Nov 20, 2021 12:02:42 GMT
Interesting admin note.... Not in this one. Can't find it. What happened please ?
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GreenZero
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Post by GreenZero on Nov 20, 2021 12:33:19 GMT
Not sure if the Admin Note is allowed to be quoted on here, so posted it on the DD thread.
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blender
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Post by blender on Nov 21, 2021 14:45:00 GMT
Though this new form of loan was baulked at for its complexity here, it is sad to see that some avenues in p2p cannot be safely travelled. I think the decision is wise, because retail investors (including me) are sophisticated but not necessarily expert enough to have a sufficient understanding of this complexity, no matter how complete the information provided. The risks of that lack of understanding fall on the lenders, the platform, and those who are supposed to ensure a reasonably safe environment for retail lenders. Though let's not take it too far.
Abl are to be appreciated, I believe, for going the extra mile to seek out new forms of lending to present to us. And I guess, without knowledge, for making sure the instant returns were paid, because if I were the applicant borrower here I would be rather reluctant to do so in these circumstances.
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