bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Jan 13, 2022 13:07:07 GMT
Unfortunately, even the CC are not being being shown exactly what is happening (to my belief), and that I find disturbing, especially considering that we have signed an NDA! My understanding is that we are not being shown any documents on this matter to ensure we dont let anything "slip" to the detriment of the lenders, which is quite condescending, as all members of the CC also have considerable sums of their own tied up in this fiasco. '.... It is my belief that had these liquidations been in the conventional business sector settlement would have been considerably faster. I can only believe that the receivers are milking our funds for all they are worth on frivolous exercises....' In a 'conventional' business wind-up you would not have the funds available (for the administrators/liquidators) to keep the settlement anything but short. Once the administrators were able to see the funds due to lenders they managed to manipulate turn things around so conveniently everything became muddled.
Whilst it would be good to see things finalised, there is absolutely no incentive for the administrators to do so when there are still funds floating around in the barrel. It's a total injustice but these guys (the administrators) are not amateurs. I believe most lenders, hand on heart, expect to see nothing more than a few pennies in the pound returned if they are lucky.
The saga/fiasco will end once the barrel is empty - what a coincidence. In the meantime it will just run and run with excuse heaped on excuse.
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grumpsimus
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Post by grumpsimus on Jan 16, 2022 21:49:09 GMT
I am not an expert on the Quistclose Trust Issue, but do know something about the law on Quistclose Trusts. This came up a few years ago in discussions with a Lawyer when my wife was selling her company.
1. The first point is that Lawyers appeared appear to very divided on Quistclose Trusts. Some don't like them and see them as one creditor trying to get to the front of the queue of other creditors. Other Lawyers seem to regard Quistclose Trusts as a useful source of fee income. Even judges appeared divided on the issue.
2. To launch a Quistclose Trust claim the debt has to be substantial, in order to justify the legal costs which will be incurred. The insovent target also has to have enough funds to pay the claim.
3. It is clear from case law that the lender must establish that a Quistclose Trust was established when the the money was lent.
4. Although there are no figures, it seems that only a minority of Quistclose Trust claims are successful.
5. It appears that some people think it suits the Administrators to deal with this claim as slowly as possible. I don't think this is the case, from the Administrators point of view it is a nuisance which creates uncertainty for them. They have stopped paying out until such time as the Quistclose claim is settled. If they continued to pay out and the Quistclose claim was successful, the Administrators could be personally liable for any shortfall.
6. We do not know details of the claim, so cannot have a view on its merits or otherwise. It has been suggested that the CC could see the documents. However, it would be very unusual for legal documents to be disclosed in this way. The administrators can deal with it as they see fit and the CC has no power to get them to disclose.
I agree this is all very unsatisfactory from the point of view of ordinary lenders. Remember the two rules of insolvency - it all takes longer that you thought possible and you always get back less than you expect.
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rogerthat
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Post by rogerthat on Jan 17, 2022 0:33:30 GMT
I agree this is all very unsatisfactory from the point of view of ordinary lenders. Remember the two rules of insolvency - it all takes longer that you thought possible and you always get back less than you expect.
To a layman , that all reads very plausible but to that same layman I suppose it might depend on your definition of what an 'ordinary' lender is and by definition therefore, ask how many types of lenders are there ?
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nyneil
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Post by nyneil on Jan 17, 2022 10:48:58 GMT
Would I be right thinking (hoping), that if the claim fails, the litigant will have to pay the Administrator's legal costs?
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Post by overthehill on Jan 17, 2022 11:19:20 GMT
Would I be right thinking (hoping), that if the claim fails, the litigant will have to pay the Administrator's legal costs? too right. Not being the case would amount to wasting the court's time and the taxpayer's money, aka a free for all. As we know the non-criminal justice system is only for rich individuals or companies to get want they want, it's unaffordable for others.
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grumpsimus
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Post by grumpsimus on Jan 17, 2022 17:35:20 GMT
Would I be right thinking (hoping), that if the claim fails, the litigant will have to pay the Administrator's legal costs? It is impossible to say at this stage. I do not know if the claimant has yet issued formal legal proceedings. It could still be at the "Letter before Action' where the parties discuss any action/settlement.
If the case does proceed to Court (more long delays) and the FS Administrators win, they would ask for costs. This is at the disgression of the Court. So a good chance of getting costs, but it might not cover them all.
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on Jan 17, 2022 19:46:21 GMT
"Would I be right thinking (hoping), that if the claim fails, the litigant will have to pay the Administrator's legal costs?"
Oh, I think this type of Litigant usually and conveniently is declared Bankrupt soon after they Lose and have to pay Costs.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 18, 2022 4:54:38 GMT
As if any of the FS borrowers have ever gone bankrupt or even use that option as part of their business plan i.e. borrow, siphon-off cash, set-up another company , stuff the loan go bust and move on after shafting decent lenders whilst laughing at us...
I wonder if this person is the one lied-up ,(sorry meant tied-up) with the high-powered solicitor in Blackb**n - you never know
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morris
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Post by morris on Jan 18, 2022 7:00:03 GMT
Now who is the biggest investor in the FS platform. I think we know don't we.
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merlin99
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Post by merlin99 on Jan 18, 2022 9:21:40 GMT
As if any of the FS borrowers have ever gone bankrupt or even use that option as part of their business plan i.e. borrow, siphon-off cash, set-up another company , stuff the loan go bust and move on after shafting decent lenders whilst laughing at us... I wonder if this person is the one lied-up ,(sorry meant tied-up) with the high-powered solicitor in Blackb**n - you never know But when the money has totally run out I guess we will still be guessing!
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Post by richardw on Jan 18, 2022 12:17:41 GMT
In fairness to CG, quite apart from the Quistclose problem, there have been several other abnormal issues that have delayed the process:
1. In Scotland, Sturgeon's decision to close all the building sites (eg Ladyb*nk). 2. Govt Covid restrictions on legal repossession action (eg Wainbri**ge Cottage) 3. Long Covid backlogs in the County Courts - (eg Far*h*m). 4. WFH delays with solicitors, planners & building inspectors (eg R*d, Lo*dge) 5. Collapse of genuine builders because their lines of credit failed due to Covid delays (eg Wo**head Farm) 6. Loss of confidence in the commercial market during the first Covid wave (eg Craiga**n)
I would suggest none of the above were either foreseeable or CG's fault.
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 18, 2022 14:04:58 GMT
fair point but I don't think it will reduce their massive fee...
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 18, 2022 14:27:33 GMT
fair point but I don't think it will reduce their massive fee... The fee to lenders is % so not affected by time (its not on a time/cost basis).
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adrian77
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Post by adrian77 on Jan 18, 2022 15:38:09 GMT
6.6 Of latest progress report talk about £25.5K being time billed (not as yet paid).... wonder where this will come from?
I just can't wait to see how much CG walk away with!
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 18, 2022 20:05:12 GMT
6.6 Of latest progress report talk about £25.5K being time billed (not as yet paid).... wonder where this will come from? I just can't wait to see how much CG walk away with! Not clear I agree but most likely the estate rather than lenders. Also capped at £30k +vat so again not ever ticking clock
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