adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 14, 2024 13:14:30 GMT
I do not really have any strong opinions on Zelensky - other than he is a bit corrupt Unlike Putin? Who absolutely hasn't robbed his country blind to feather his own nest. He's got himself into a position where he simply can't have the nice wealthy retirement that he may well have been looking forward to (but probably wasn't, because he's a megalomaniac who can never switch off), because wherever he goes in the world, he's going to be looking over his shoulder for the next bus to the Hague. www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-and
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markyg61
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Post by markyg61 on May 14, 2024 13:17:18 GMT
Pick your historical starting point to suit your preferred endpoint.
I do not have a preferred endpoint I am merely pointing out how Russian Nationalists - such as Putin - see things from my understanding of their perspective. My only interest in this situation is to see this war end ASAP since it is very obvious to me the only thing that is going to happen is a large number of Ukrainians are going to be killed in a war they cannot win AND more importantly I do not want to die in a nuclear war. Ukraine and Russias dispute over territory is nothing to do with me and I dont believe in getting involved in things that are not my concern outside of humanitarian and self preservation interests. As you are already aware I am of the view that western meddling in this situation has made it ALOT worse for Ukraine.
Err, Budapest Memorandum anyone ? "Under the agreement the Russian Federation provided security assurances to Ukraine in the form of promising to neither attack nor threaten attack them." Well as usual, you cant believe or trust a russian !
I believe the US and the UK have an obligation to support Ukraine for them giving up the nukes. Do you think russia would still have attacked had Ukraine kept hold of the nukes
Do you honestly think they didn't want to take Kiev back in February '22, 60km tailback of military vehicles, remember that ? Of course they had every intention but through bad intelligence, bad planning and a dire operation they were pushed back in retreat (oh sorry, a goodwill gesture from russia I think they called it !)
So yes, it IS your concern.
Yes, they will push further into Ukraine given the opportunity. Yes, we need to continue providing weapons for as long as Ukraine want to continue.
Yes, russia cannot be allowed to "win" Yes, russia needs to be held accountable and slung out of of every international group, committee, council, organisation. No, we dont need russia.
rant over ..
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on May 14, 2024 13:18:15 GMT
I do not really have any strong opinions on Zelensky - other than he is a bit corrupt Unlike Putin? Who absolutely hasn't robbed his country blind to feather his own nest. He's got himself into a position where he simply can't have the nice wealthy retirement that he may well have been looking forward to (but probably wasn't, because he's a megalomaniac who can never switch off), because wherever he goes in the world, he's going to be looking over his shoulder for the next bus to the Hague. www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-ukraine-icc-judges-issue-arrest-warrants-against-vladimir-vladimirovich-putin-andPutin is very corrupt and ruthless, some say he is the wealthiest man in the world, even richer than Rishi Sunak and he has definitely murdered/tortured more people* - but Russian internal affairs are nothing to do with me. *- he is also very popular in Russia, where some of what we might say are his negative characteristics might be positives for some parts of the Russian electorate
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 14, 2024 13:26:36 GMT
Great, so we agree on something. Pointing fingers at Zelensky for corruption whilst standing next to Putin is not a good look.
Sunak's not that wealthy in the grand scheme of megawealth. It's not even his - it's his father-in-law's, via a pile of shares he gave his daughter. Estimates are "only" about half a bill, not even top 250 in the UK, about a third of Lord Ashcroft's wealth, about the same as Crispin Odious before his fall from gracelessness. Even the UK's wealthiest (Ratcliffe/Hindujas), with 50x Sunak's worth, aren't top 100 globally.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on May 14, 2024 14:36:41 GMT
I do not have a preferred endpoint I am merely pointing out how Russian Nationalists - such as Putin - see things from my understanding of their perspective. My only interest in this situation is to see this war end ASAP since it is very obvious to me the only thing that is going to happen is a large number of Ukrainians are going to be killed in a war they cannot win AND more importantly I do not want to die in a nuclear war. Ukraine and Russias dispute over territory is nothing to do with me and I dont believe in getting involved in things that are not my concern outside of humanitarian and self preservation interests. As you are already aware I am of the view that western meddling in this situation has made it ALOT worse for Ukraine.
Err, Budapest Memorandum anyone ? "Under the agreement the Russian Federation provided security assurances to Ukraine in the form of promising to neither attack nor threaten attack them." Well as usual, you cant believe or trust a russian !
I believe the US and the UK have an obligation to support Ukraine for them giving up the nukes. Do you think russia would still have attacked had Ukraine kept hold of the nukes
Do you honestly think they didn't want to take Kiev back in February '22, 60km tailback of military vehicles, remember that ? Of course they had every intention but through bad intelligence, bad planning and a dire operation they were pushed back in retreat (oh sorry, a goodwill gesture from russia I think they called it !)
<My numbering>
1/ So yes, it IS your concern.
2/ Yes, they will push further into Ukraine given the opportunity. 3/ Yes, we need to continue providing weapons for as long as Ukraine want to continue.
4/ Yes, russia cannot be allowed to "win" 5/ Yes, russia needs to be held accountable and slung out of of every international group, committee, council, organisation. 6/ No, we dont need russia.
rant over ..
That (bolded) is an obvious but good point IMO. I agree with point 2 also but think that would be based on opportunism rather than something they would seek in an eventual settlement. i.e. if they broke through the lines and there will little more defences they'd march on.... 3 probably but as part of a team not a loan wolf waiting for its head to be struck off On 4, we can't stop it. 5 agree 6 agree Oh way, didn't you also say I'm a Russian spy or did you just agree with someone that did? What weight should we give to the arguments of someone who enjoys goading victims?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 14, 2024 14:58:34 GMT
1/ So yes, it IS your concern.
2/ Yes, they will push further into Ukraine given the opportunity. 3/ Yes, we need to continue providing weapons for as long as Ukraine want to continue.
4/ Yes, russia cannot be allowed to "win" 5/ Yes, russia needs to be held accountable and slung out of of every international group, committee, council, organisation. 6/ No, we dont need russia.
rant over .. That (bolded) is an obvious but good point IMO. I agree with point 2 also but think that would be based on opportunism rather than something they would seek in an eventual settlement. i.e. if they broke through the lines and there will little more defences they'd march on.... 3 probably but as part of a team not a loan wolf waiting for its head to be struck off On 4, we can't stop it. 5 agree 6 agree 3. The UK isn't a "lone wolf". We ARE part of a team. We aren't even *that* generous by the standards of the rest of the team. www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/UK is the 15th largest overall donor country, by % of GDP and 3rd by € value. US is top by €, 7x the UK's value. Germany is second, 1.5x. Top donors by % GDP are Estonia then Denmark. For humanitarian donations, we're 21st by % and 6th by € For financial donations, we're 5th by % and 3rd by € For military donations, we're 17th by % and 3rd by € - top donors by % are Estonia then Denmark again; and US (obvs!) then Germany by €. Germany's military donations are twice the UK's, and the US's are 4x Germany's. 4. No, we can't guarantee to stop Russia winning. But if we don't even try, we guarantee they DO.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on May 14, 2024 15:16:11 GMT
That (bolded) is an obvious but good point IMO. I agree with point 2 also but think that would be based on opportunism rather than something they would seek in an eventual settlement. i.e. if they broke through the lines and there will little more defences they'd march on.... 3 probably but as part of a team not a loan wolf waiting for its head to be struck off On 4, we can't stop it. 5 agree 6 agree 3. The UK isn't a "lone wolf". We ARE part of a team. We aren't even *that* generous by the standards of the rest of the team. www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/UK is the 15th largest overall donor country, by % of GDP and 3rd by € value. US is top by €, 7x the UK's value. Germany is second, 1.5x. Top donors by % GDP are Estonia then Denmark. For humanitarian donations, we're 21st by % and 6th by € For financial donations, we're 5th by % and 3rd by € For military donations, we're 17th by % and 3rd by € - top donors by % are Estonia then Denmark again; and US (obvs!) then Germany by €. Germany's military donations are twice the UK's, and the US's are 4x Germany's. 4. No, we can't guarantee to stop Russia winning. But if we don't even try, we guarantee they DO. Think the numbers only tell part of the story ... the UK is maybe seen as more significant than that ... early backer, provided the MANPATS & significant training, tactics to blunt the initial attack, first to provide Western MBT (not tanks as ex-Soviet stuff), Storm Shadow gives significant capability, and now can be used extra-territorially, and we have been prominent in political support, visits etc. I suspect the above is what Mc is alluding to ... we are certainly amongst the most prominent in setting a direction of travel, even if we arent in the biggest or flashiest car.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 14, 2024 15:29:15 GMT
3. The UK isn't a "lone wolf". We ARE part of a team. We aren't even *that* generous by the standards of the rest of the team. www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/UK is the 15th largest overall donor country, by % of GDP and 3rd by € value. US is top by €, 7x the UK's value. Germany is second, 1.5x. Top donors by % GDP are Estonia then Denmark. For humanitarian donations, we're 21st by % and 6th by € For financial donations, we're 5th by % and 3rd by € For military donations, we're 17th by % and 3rd by € - top donors by % are Estonia then Denmark again; and US (obvs!) then Germany by €. Germany's military donations are twice the UK's, and the US's are 4x Germany's. 4. No, we can't guarantee to stop Russia winning. But if we don't even try, we guarantee they DO. Think the numbers only tell part of the story ... the UK is maybe seen as more significant than that ... early backer, provided the MANPATS & significant training, tactics to blunt the initial attack, first to provide Western MBT (not tanks as ex-Soviet stuff), Storm Shadow gives significant capability, and now can be used extra-territorially, and we have been prominent in political support, visits etc. I suspect the above is what Mc is alluding to ... we are certainly amongst the most prominent in setting a direction of travel, even if we arent in the biggest or flashiest car. The UK certainly always likes to think the UK is somehow globally more important than mere statistics imply... <coughbrexitcough>The simple fact is that the UK's military contribution is about 6% of that of the EU and US combined, and about 5.5% for all contributions. That does not make us anything even remotely close to a "lone wolf" as michaelc suggested. Was our speed of initial response important? Perhaps. But that was two PMs (soon to be three) ago.
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k6
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Post by k6 on May 15, 2024 17:25:05 GMT
Putin is very corrupt and ruthless, some say he is the wealthiest man in the world, even richer than Rishi Sunak and he has definitely murdered/tortured more people* - but Russian internal affairs are nothing to do with me. *- he is also very popular in Russia, where some of what we might say are his negative characteristics might be positives for some parts of the Russian electorate russian Puppet . . . ? www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/15/robert-fico-slovakia-prime-minister
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on May 15, 2024 19:46:45 GMT
Putin is very corrupt and ruthless, some say he is the wealthiest man in the world, even richer than Rishi Sunak and he has definitely murdered/tortured more people* - but Russian internal affairs are nothing to do with me. *- he is also very popular in Russia, where some of what we might say are his negative characteristics might be positives for some parts of the Russian electorate russian Puppet . . . ? www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/15/robert-fico-slovakia-prime-ministerFico is not a Russian Puppet any more than Orban, he is just an independently minded politician from a country with historical links with Russia who is acting in the best interest of his country. Hopefully he will make a full recovery. The guy who shot him is probably some moron who does not think for himself and is caught up in all the emotional propaganda, there are a lot of those about these days...
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Post by bracknellboy on May 16, 2024 7:29:57 GMT
Fico is not a Russian Puppet any more than Orban, he is just an independently minded politician from a country with historical links with Russia who is acting in the best interest of his country. Hopefully he will make a full recovery. The guy who shot him is probably some moron who does not think for himself and is caught up in all the emotional propaganda, there are a lot of those about these days...I also wish Fico well. Healthwise if not politically. I was going to write yesterday that right now we know nothing about the shooter, and it was just as likely if not most likely he was someone with mental health issues. But that I entirely agree there are a lot morons caught up in emotional online propaganda...... I was however diverted to doing more productive things. This morning I see that the apparent assailant - unconfirmed - is "an amateur poet and former supermarket security guard said to have links with a pro-Russian paramilitary group, Slovenski Branski, also known as Slovak Conscripts." I also noted that "According to unconfirmed reports, SB received training from Russian Spetsnaz instructors and members are said to have fought for Russia in Ukraine."I continue in my belief that there are a log of morons caught up in emotional online propaganda.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 16, 2024 7:53:06 GMT
Fico is not a Russian Puppet any more than Orban, he is just an independently minded politician from a country with historical links with Russia who is acting in the best interest of his country. "Ostalgie" is a thing, especially amongst the hard-of-thinking and elderly. We can, of course, recognise strong parallels in our own recent political divisions. There we agree. Fortunately, it appears he is doing so. Violence has no place in politics, and is the last resort those without any valid argument - and the desperately oppressed. The latter does not appear to be the case here.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on May 16, 2024 8:33:10 GMT
Fico is not a Russian Puppet any more than Orban, he is just an independently minded politician from a country with historical links with Russia who is acting in the best interest of his country. Hopefully he will make a full recovery. The guy who shot him is probably some moron who does not think for himself and is caught up in all the emotional propaganda, there are a lot of those about these days...This morning I see that the apparent assailant - unconfirmed - is "an amateur poet and former supermarket security guard said to have links with a pro-Russian paramilitary group, Slovenski Branski, also known as Slovak Conscripts." I also noted that "According to unconfirmed reports, SB received training from Russian Spetsnaz instructors and members are said to have fought for Russia in Ukraine."Given Fico is probably considered to be Pro-Russian (by the standards of the EU and US) that makes no sense what so ever*. But then again you believed what the main stream media in this country told you about the Russians blowing up the Nordstream when they could just switch the gas off and were dropping shells on the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant after their troops had captured it *- unless he is some kind of deep state asset.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 16, 2024 8:47:09 GMT
This morning I see that the apparent assailant - unconfirmed - is "an amateur poet and former supermarket security guard said to have links with a pro-Russian paramilitary group, Slovenski Branski, also known as Slovak Conscripts." I also noted that "According to unconfirmed reports, SB received training from Russian Spetsnaz instructors and members are said to have fought for Russia in Ukraine."Given Fico is probably considered to be Pro-Russian (by the standards of the EU and US) that makes no sense what so ever*. But then again you believed what the main stream media in this country told you about the Russians blowing up the Nordstream when they could just switch the gas off and were dropping shells on the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant after their troops had captured it *- unless he is some kind of deep state asset. There's a bit more to it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Robert_Fico#SuspectThe putative assassin is clearly not of sound mind, and his primary motive appears to be Fico's gerrymandering of the media. Dementia?
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rscal
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Post by rscal on May 16, 2024 10:38:17 GMT
Given Fico is probably considered to be Pro-Russian (by the standards of the EU and US) that makes no sense what so ever*. But then again you believed what the main stream media in this country told you about the Russians blowing up the Nordstream when they could just switch the gas off and were dropping shells on the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant after their troops had captured it *- unless he is some kind of deep state asset. There's a bit more to it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_assassination_of_Robert_Fico#SuspectThe putative assassin is clearly not of sound mind, and his primary motive appears to be Fico's gerrymandering of the media. Dementia? WIKIPEDIA ... really!
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