angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 23, 2024 16:43:59 GMT
You are not dealing with the simple question I asked I would have thought "obviously" was a simple enough answer for you. Let me answer that by turning it around. Abandoning Ukraine to Putin massively reduces the safety of the world. It gives not just Putin, but all other megalomaniacal dictators and autocrats carte blanche to invade and annex any territory they wish. Why do you think Putin's other neighbours have been joining NATO and increasing their defence expenditure over the last three years? Clue: Because they don't want to be next. We tried appeasement in 2014. Look how well that worked. Yes it comes down to this whole Neo-Con propaganda * "Putin = Hitler", if we dont stop him in Ukraine we are next etc. They bring this stuff out every time they start a War, they brought it out for Iraq, Aghanistan etc etc. We have to Stop Saddam before he blows up the world, they hate us because of our freedom - we are a democracy they are nutters, you cant negotiate with terrorists or dictators etc etc. * - which doesnt surprise me since they are the people behind this mess in the first place.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 23, 2024 17:05:19 GMT
I would have thought "obviously" was a simple enough answer for you. Let me answer that by turning it around. Abandoning Ukraine to Putin massively reduces the safety of the world. It gives not just Putin, but all other megalomaniacal dictators and autocrats carte blanche to invade and annex any territory they wish. Why do you think Putin's other neighbours have been joining NATO and increasing their defence expenditure over the last three years? Clue: Because they don't want to be next. We tried appeasement in 2014. Look how well that worked. Yes it comes down to this whole Neo-Con propaganda * "Putin = Hitler", if we dont stop him in Ukraine we are next etc. They bring this stuff out every time they start a War * - which doesnt surprise me since they are the people behind this mess in the first place. Woah up, let's just remember EXACTLY what happened here... Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed Crimea. Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 and attempted to annex the entire remainder of the country. Why? Because he didn't like their preferences in terms of their future direction.* And before you say "But NATO! But EU!" - let's just remind ourselves of the timeline: p2pindependentforum.com/post/500169I don't believe you took me up on my offer to fill in any blanks in that timeline, so shall we assume it's uncontested? michaelc didn't add anything, either, so it would seem to be fairly accurate. Your next reply in the thread, the following day, was just to parrot the Russian line that a "US-armed Ukraine is a threat to the Russian Federation", and to refer back to this fictitious "peace deal" that Putin apparently put on the table (which was no more than simply "hand us your wallet and you won't get hurt") - apparently the US veto'd it even though Ukraine would have loved it, then the next second Ukraine walked away from it because they were afraid of the US reaction - and here we are, with Ukraine still begging for more weapons to defend themselves, repel the invasion, expel the invader, and get control of their country back. * - a cynic may also point to blue-water naval access to the Black Sea and Med, as well as the wheat crops.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 23, 2024 18:21:51 GMT
Yes it comes down to this whole Neo-Con propaganda * "Putin = Hitler", if we dont stop him in Ukraine we are next etc. They bring this stuff out every time they start a War * - which doesnt surprise me since they are the people behind this mess in the first place. Woah up, let's just remember EXACTLY what happened here... Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed Crimea. Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 and attempted to annex the entire remainder of the country. Why? Because he didn't like their preferences in terms of their future direction.* And before you say "But NATO! But EU!" - let's just remind ourselves of the timeline: p2pindependentforum.com/post/500169I don't believe you took me up on my offer to fill in any blanks in that timeline, so shall we assume it's uncontested? michaelc didn't add anything, either, so it would seem to be fairly accurate. Your next reply in the thread, the following day, was just to parrot the Russian line that a "US-armed Ukraine is a threat to the Russian Federation", and to refer back to this fictitious "peace deal" that Putin apparently put on the table (which was no more than simply "hand us your wallet and you won't get hurt") - apparently the US veto'd it even though Ukraine would have loved it, then the next second Ukraine walked away from it because they were afraid of the US reaction - and here we are, with Ukraine still begging for more weapons to defend themselves, repel the invasion, expel the invader, and get control of their country back. * - a cynic may also point to blue-water naval access to the Black Sea and Med, as well as the wheat crops.This happened after the Neo-Con inspired Anti-Russian Midan Coup and was in the context of the attacks on Russians by US supported Anti-Russian Banderite Extremists (who were also heavily involved in the Midan). I am fairly certain none of this would have happened without US involvement in Ukraine by the Neo-Cons* and Ukraine would be at peace with Russia. * - who are also behind the Invasion of Iraq to stop Saddams weapons of mass destruction etc etc. They do not give a damn about Ukraine or democracy, they are about US military Hegemony and if you think this is about saving democracy in Ukraine then I think you should ask where you have heard this we need to have a war to save a democracy before (google people like Mccain, Graham, Clinton, Cheney, Nuland etc)...
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 23, 2024 18:23:11 GMT
Woah up, let's just remember EXACTLY what happened here... Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 and annexed Crimea. Putin invaded the rest of Ukraine in 2022 and attempted to annex the entire remainder of the country. Why? Because he didn't like their preferences in terms of their future direction.* And before you say "But NATO! But EU!" - let's just remind ourselves of the timeline: p2pindependentforum.com/post/500169I don't believe you took me up on my offer to fill in any blanks in that timeline, so shall we assume it's uncontested? michaelc didn't add anything, either, so it would seem to be fairly accurate. Your next reply in the thread, the following day, was just to parrot the Russian line that a "US-armed Ukraine is a threat to the Russian Federation", and to refer back to this fictitious "peace deal" that Putin apparently put on the table (which was no more than simply "hand us your wallet and you won't get hurt") - apparently the US veto'd it even though Ukraine would have loved it, then the next second Ukraine walked away from it because they were afraid of the US reaction - and here we are, with Ukraine still begging for more weapons to defend themselves, repel the invasion, expel the invader, and get control of their country back. * - a cynic may also point to blue-water naval access to the Black Sea and Med, as well as the wheat crops.This happened after the Neo-Con inspired Anti-Russian Midan Coup and was in the context of the attacks on Russians by US supported Anti-Russian Banderite Extremists (who were also heavily involved in the Midan). I am fairly certain none of this would have happened without US involvement in Ukraine by the Neo-Cons* and Ukraine would be at peace with Russia. * - who are also behind the Invasion of Iraq to stop Saddams weapons of mass destruction etc etc. They do not give a damn about Ukraine or democracy, they are about US military Hegemony and if you think this is about saving democracy in Ukraine then I think you should ask where you have heard this we need to have a war to save a democracy before... OK, so you simply haven't bothered reading that timeline. Fair enough. A question for you... Looking at the entire period post-1990, would you rather be a citizen of an ex-Iron Curtain country that was looking eastwards or westwards?
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Nov 23, 2024 18:37:22 GMT
This happened after the Neo-Con inspired Anti-Russian Midan Coup and was in the context of the attacks on Russians by US supported Anti-Russian Banderite Extremists (who were also heavily involved in the Midan). I am fairly certain none of this would have happened without US involvement in Ukraine by the Neo-Cons* and Ukraine would be at peace with Russia. * - who are also behind the Invasion of Iraq to stop Saddams weapons of mass destruction etc etc. They do not give a damn about Ukraine or democracy, they are about US military Hegemony and if you think this is about saving democracy in Ukraine then I think you should ask where you have heard this we need to have a war to save a democracy before... OK, so you simply haven't bothered reading that timeline. Fair enough. A question for you... Looking at the entire period post-1990, would you rather be a citizen of an ex-Iron Curtain country that was looking eastwards or westwards? In the late 1990s early 2000s I would be looking Westward. In 2024 I would be looking Eastward - I think that is part of why so many Russians living in Ukraine voted to become part of the Russian Federation. You are aware Russia is now the 4th largest economy in the world and has vast natural resources*. * - which is one of the reasons the Neo-cons were so interested in Russia.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 23, 2024 18:44:59 GMT
OK, so you simply haven't bothered reading that timeline. Fair enough. A question for you... Looking at the entire period post-1990, would you rather be a citizen of an ex-Iron Curtain country that was looking eastwards or westwards? In the late 1990s early 2000s I would be looking Westward. Well, quite. Yet here you are suggesting that it's incomprehensible why Ukraine might think likewise. For what reason? How about Ukrainians? By what measure? 11th by nominal GDP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)65th by nominal GDP per capita, surely the more relevant measure. Just above those economic powerhouses of Kazakhstan and Mexico. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
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