Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Jan 16, 2015 11:27:15 GMT
Easy to use website, asset backed loans, active fee free secondary market, instant investment, great returns, good communications.
What's not to like?
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jonno
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nil satis nisi optimum
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Post by jonno on Jan 16, 2015 11:39:19 GMT
Easy to use website, asset backed loans, active fee free secondary market, instant investment, great returns, good communications. What's not to like? Fully agree BUT: it's probably worth you looking at other threads re the precise nature of lenders' relationship with SS/Lendy and the fact that your risk is currently all in "one basket" i.e. directly with Lendy rather than diversified across the loan book. Lendy are currently looking at this issue but it seems to be taking some time.
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Post by davee39 on Jan 16, 2015 11:46:51 GMT
Yes, its absolutely brilliant - until the music stops.
Property investment depends on the planning and development going to plan and timely and profitable sales.
Now if you are getting 12%, the borrower is paying somewhat more. Any delay in completion or sales could then lead to default. Fine, the lender now owns the asset, but there is then the problem of taking the legal charge and selling it on.
I am risk averse, I do not like uncertainty, delayed payments etc so have concluded SS (and most other P2P businesses) are not for me, even as a small part of a balanced portfolio.
I am intrigued that Wellesley offer savers much lower rates yet are lending into a similar market (presumably the loans are at lower rates). I am not in any position to speculate on this.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Jan 16, 2015 12:57:48 GMT
Yes, its absolutely brilliant - until the music stops. Property investment depends on the planning and development going to plan and timely and profitable sales. Now if you are getting 12%, the borrower is paying somewhat more. Any delay in completion or sales could then lead to default. Fine, the lender now owns the asset, but there is then the problem of taking the legal charge and selling it on. I am risk averse, I do not like uncertainty, delayed payments etc so have concluded SS (and most other P2P businesses) are not for me, even as a small part of a balanced portfolio. I am intrigued that Wellesley offer savers much lower rates yet are lending into a similar market (presumably the loans are at lower rates). I am not in any position to speculate on this. All good points. You say that you have concluded that most P2P offerings are not for you, implying that one or more are, I wonder which platforms you consider suitable for the risk averse lender?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 13:02:57 GMT
Yes, its absolutely brilliant - until the music stops. Property investment depends on the planning and development going to plan and timely and profitable sales. Now if you are getting 12%, the borrower is paying somewhat more. Any delay in completion or sales could then lead to default. Fine, the lender now owns the asset, but there is then the problem of taking the legal charge and selling it on. I am risk averse, I do not like uncertainty, delayed payments etc so have concluded SS (and most other P2P businesses) are not for me, even as a small part of a balanced portfolio. I am intrigued that Wellesley offer savers much lower rates yet are lending into a similar market (presumably the loans are at lower rates). I am not in any position to speculate on this. Wellesley runs a provision fund which has over £1.1 million sitting in it, so maybe this is a factor re: the last point raised?
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Post by savingstream on Jan 16, 2015 13:34:46 GMT
Interesting that you brought up the 'Provision Fund' run by Wellesley. They have £1.1m in their provision fund which is around 2% of their current live loan book of £55.6m. Recently Lendy Ltd has been discussing how best to improve investor security and is considering offering a Provision Fund of their own. It would be a discretionary fund setup as a separate company that held 2% of the value of Lendy Ltd's current live book as a cash balance in the fund at all times. The fund would be to cover any potential shortfall when dealing with property disposals, thus improving investor security.
In addition, we are still considering the Trust company (as per AC), setup to hold investor assets but some legal questions have arisen as to the workings on this and are still ongoing. If there are any accountants/lawyers with ideas on how best to proceed, we would be happy to discuss.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Jan 16, 2015 14:54:54 GMT
Interesting that you brought up the 'Provision Fund' run by Wellesley. They have £1.1m in their provision fund which is around 2% of their current live loan book of £55.6m. Recently Lendy Ltd has been discussing how best to improve investor security and is considering offering a Provision Fund of their own. It would be a discretionary fund setup as a separate company that held 2% of the value of Lendy Ltd's current live book as a cash balance in the fund at all times. The fund would be to cover any potential shortfall when dealing with property disposals, thus improving investor security. In addition, we are still considering the Trust company (as per AC), setup to hold investor assets but some legal questions have arisen as to the workings on this and are still ongoing. If there are any accountants/lawyers with ideas on how best to proceed, we would be happy to discuss. I for one have severely limited my investing in SS simply because of your lack of the security provided by a Trust company or the equivalent. Currently we (the investors) are putting our trust in the ongoing success of Lendy but if anything went wrong with Lendy or its shareholders or directors we could all be whistling in the wind for our money. This is not just my view but is shared by many other of your current investors and other potential investors as well. To underline this fact, I spoke to three different investment clubs before Christmas about P2P lending and whilst many were happy to invest in other P2P providers they were nervous about invest in you for the above reason.
If you could sort this matter out I think you could see your business grow at a very much faster rate. You have a good model and a system that is among the easiest to use. All you now need is the missing security.
I must admit I am not too interested in a Provision Fund. After all we would end up paying for it one way or other just like any other "insurance".
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Post by savingstream on Jan 16, 2015 16:09:08 GMT
The initial funds for the setup of the Provision fund would come from Shareholder funds. The 'Provision Fund' would then be topped up from each loan from the administration fee we charge borrowers. We would not expect our investors to earn less in order to grow the 'Provision Fund'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2015 17:05:39 GMT
When I took my first tentative steps into P2P lending, my first investment was with Wellesley & Co. and the existence of a provision fund was reassuring to a novice investor like me and that's what led me to go with them. Since then I have invested more widely, including in SS, but I have limited my investments with SS and still spread my money about. I like the simplicity, liquidity and ease of use of the SS platform, above all others, and any provision that offered a bit more investor security (a 2nd line of defence if you like, which could be called on if the security didn't cover the loan and costs in the event of a loan going bad) might well tempt me to invest more. Wouldn't that mean we weren't so reliant on Lendy making good any loss that could occur? But I'm not expert enough to comment on the appropriateness of a separate, ring fenced, provision fund in relation to the SS model but I would have thought such a provision pot might attract new investors who are currently a little nervous.
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Post by 4thway on Jan 16, 2015 17:26:41 GMT
Yes, its absolutely brilliant - until the music stops. Property investment depends on the planning and development going to plan and timely and profitable sales. Now if you are getting 12%, the borrower is paying somewhat more. Any delay in completion or sales could then lead to default. Fine, the lender now owns the asset, but there is then the problem of taking the legal charge and selling it on. I am risk averse, I do not like uncertainty, delayed payments etc so have concluded SS (and most other P2P businesses) are not for me, even as a small part of a balanced portfolio. I am intrigued that Wellesley offer savers much lower rates yet are lending into a similar market (presumably the loans are at lower rates). I am not in any position to speculate on this. Wellesley runs a provision fund which has over £1.1 million sitting in it, so maybe this is a factor re: the last point raised? There are other notable differences: Wellesley only takes a first charge, whereas Lendy sometimes takes a second charge. While both companies lend part of their own money in every loan, Wellesley will take the first loss of 5% on every loan. Wellesley automatically diversifies your loans across its whole outstanding loanbook, readjusting the balance every Friday. Currently there are 100 outstanding loans and rising. Wellesley pays max (simple) 6% per year (5.4% compounded). Savings Stream pays 12%! Also, regarding the bridging loans part, Wellesley's CEO mentioned casually at a conference last year that it is getting out of bridging loans, even saying Wellesley is not a bridging loans provider any more. I don't know how far the company has really got in working its way out of such loans, however. Wellesley has an average LTV of 64%. What's Saving Stream's average? I did a stress test of Wellesley & Co. in a crisis: www.4thway.co.uk/candid-opinion/wellesley-co-safe-even-crash/I wonder how Saving Stream would compare?
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Post by davee39 on Jan 16, 2015 18:07:32 GMT
Steerpike,
Ratesetter is by far my favourite P2P with about 46% of my P2P allocation. Zopa is next with about 36%. Zopa should be a nice safe bet, but I am annoyed by just about every part of their loan system, especially the uncertainty relating to rates (I am pulling out repayments after getting 4.6% on 5 yrs not the target 5.1). The balance is in FC which, for all its faults, is entertaining and currently providing a 13% return after fees and defaults. It takes a lot of work, but I have a lot of time. I have pulled out of Funding Secure, am withdrawing from SS and will not be investing further with Wellesley as bonds mature. I would stress that I have not had any losses or problems with the latter three, I just want to manage my risk out of property and simplify my portfolio.
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j
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Post by j on Jan 16, 2015 19:38:11 GMT
A trust Co for SS is very important. I am no lawyer/accountant but, if AC have been able to do it, what is stopping you savingstream to do so too, despite the issues you allude to in earlier post?! If that is done, then you add a provision fund which costs nothing to lenders, then you really are talking & would steal a march on everyone else. Remember though, all these points are just side shaows to the main issue, NEVER LOSE LENDERS MONEY! You do that, you will always be top of the class, even at a little lower % return
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 16, 2015 19:45:55 GMT
The initial funds for the setup of the Provision fund would come from Shareholder funds. The 'Provision Fund' would then be topped up from each loan from the administration fee we charge borrowers. We would not expect our investors to earn less in order to grow the 'Provision Fund'. If savingstream can achieve this, and continue to attract enough borrowers to satisfy their investors' needs/wants, I think they'd be on to a real winner. One thing I would add regarding the usefulness of provision funds, however, is that they work most effectively when the platform has a large number of loans outstanding. At the moment, SS have just 18 loans -- ignoring the boat loans that will be gone from the portfolio as they mature and are not rolled over in the coming few months. A 2% fund may be perfectly adequate for a platform such as Zopa, with tens of thousands of loans outstanding, and where the largest loan they make (£25k, I think) is less than 0.4% of the size of their £6.8M fund. (I don't follow RS, so I don't know what their comparable numbers would be.) By contrast, SS have £11.17M of PBL loans outstanding (including those not live yet and those not completely funded), so a 2% fund would contain £223k. The largest SS loan is for £2.084M, which would make it more than nine times the size of their proposed fund. I accept that Zopa loans are not secured and SS loans are, and that makes a big difference, but it still illustrates how a single SS failure could severely -- or completely -- deplete a 2% SS fund. Still, even a small bit of additional protection would be an improvement over what we have now, and with any luck SS's loan portfolio will continue to grow and diversify, which would decrease the likelihood of a single disaster wiping out the fund. Having said that, though, it's much easier for a platform like Zopa to increase the number of loans outstanding because the term of their loans is so much longer, with most being in the 3-5 year range. With nearly all SS loans being for six months, the turnover in the portfolio is high and a fair number of new loans are required just to maintain the amount outstanding.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Jan 16, 2015 20:04:34 GMT
Thank you, 4thway, for an interesting and useful article. In it, you observed... This suggests that some other funds are not discretionary. Can you say which those are? One reason I ask is that I was under the impression that these funds had to be discretionary for legal/tax reasons And possibly becoming subject to alternative regulation schemes if they weren't discretionary because they would look too much like insurance. Can you comment on that?
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Jan 16, 2015 20:05:54 GMT
Steerpike, Ratesetter is by far my favourite P2P with about 46% of my P2P allocation. Zopa is next with about 36%. Zopa should be a nice safe bet, but I am annoyed by just about every part of their loan system, especially the uncertainty relating to rates (I am pulling out repayments after getting 4.6% on 5 yrs not the target 5.1). The balance is in FC which, for all its faults, is entertaining and currently providing a 13% return after fees and defaults. It takes a lot of work, but I have a lot of time. I have pulled out of Funding Secure, am withdrawing from SS and will not be investing further with Wellesley as bonds mature. I would stress that I have not had any losses or problems with the latter three, I just want to manage my risk out of property and simplify my portfolio. Interesting, I suppose that I am somewhat risk averse too. I have sums invested in a broad range of platforms, but the three biggest for me are Wellesley, Ratesetter, and Zopa primarily because they seem to me more secure because of the Provision funds. Taking in to account P2P and other investments I too am becoming concerned at my exposure to the property market.
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