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Post by df on Nov 28, 2022 22:54:42 GMT
So it looks like AAs have been turned into approx 1 year bonds (unless circumstances change). At least this time round they give an approximate timescale...
"...potential for a new higher interest automated account, or an easy auto-invest process applied to the Manual Lending Account." - I hope AC have learned the "Great/Green/Property" lesson and won't offer the same diversification formula for this new account. Not sure how popular this "auto-MLA" will be considering the current speed of loan flow, but I suppose it's nice to offer an option.
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deltron
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Post by deltron on Nov 28, 2022 23:11:13 GMT
This mini-crisis is entirely of their own making. The "Non-normal" has nothing to do with a market and everything to do with the way AC set it up. I'm just glad I didn't go for the notice accounts as it could be a very long time before those withdrawals are processed. Cue a rush to get out of the MLIA loans, as if there wasn't one already.
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alender
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Post by alender on Nov 28, 2022 23:29:32 GMT
So it looks like AAs have been turned into approx 1 year bonds (unless circumstances change). At least this time round they give an approximate timescale... "...potential for a new higher interest automated account, or an easy auto-invest process applied to the Manual Lending Account." - I hope AC have learned the "Great/Green/Property" lesson and won't offer the same diversification formula for this new account. Not sure how popular this "auto-MLA" will be considering the current speed of loan flow, but I suppose it's nice to offer an option. Looks to me that AC will abandon these accounts for a "new higher interest automated account", just like they did for all their other accounts which unfortunately did not end well for investors. They will do probably do the same as they did when they locked these down before and create a cash mountain from withdrawals far more than needed for new tranches hoping to use this for new loans to get commission rather than pay back investors. Eventually these accounts will run down and we will see how much due diligence AC have done on these loans, I hope for the sake of existing investors they have done the job they have been well payed to do. The main thing that has changed since last lock in is that the government is not throwing money all over the place which is what I believe saved us before. As Warren Buffett said only when the tide goes out do you discover who’s been swimming naked, the tide as turned and is now going out.
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alender
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Post by alender on Nov 28, 2022 23:38:40 GMT
This mini-crisis is entirely of their own making. The "Non-normal" has nothing to do with a market and everything to do with the way AC set it up. I'm just glad I didn't go for the notice accounts as it could be a very long time before those withdrawals are processed. Cue a rush to get out of the MLIA loans, as if there wasn't one already. The non normal market conditions have occurred as AC have wilfully allowed this to happen as there is nothing that is abnormal in the financial markets except the result of high inflation which was predictable and predicted by many people like myself a long time ago. They could have taken action but prefer to keep going and just lock down. This means the accounts are captured money and will keep paying commission to fund the directors salaries for a time to come. Extract from my post 13th Sep If base rates reach predicted levels then it is very likely ACs rates will become uncompetitive, given BOEs current very poor ability to predict inflation and always the predictions are much lower than it turned out I think we could be heading for higher than 3% in the not to distant future. I have been saying for a long time inflation will get out of control given most of the latest Government debt is owned by the BOE who prints money to buy it. The new energy cap has moved the increase cost of energy from the consumer to the tax payer, the Government borrowers the money on behalf of the tax payer by creating debt and selling it to BOE, who will print more money. First we will get a some easing on inflation as energy costs are capped then the printed money will cause more inflation along with all the other printed money to cover the UKs deficit and interest on the Inflation linked gilts Gordon Brown created. AC will either have to increase rates or risk having to do another lock in. They will have no choice but to lock in if there are not enough funds to either increase rates or to cover withdrawals, otherwise where would the money come from. No doubt AC will increase rates to new lenders but there will be all the existing lenders locked into lower rates for some time to come. If there is another lock in how long will it last, if like the last one quite a time as AC will hold onto cash when it can be distributed to savers.
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alender
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Post by alender on Nov 29, 2022 0:28:08 GMT
I'm not sure the risks with this kind of multiple-tranche loans were ever properly highlighted. (And not just on AC.) No they were not, this only came to light during the first lock in. It can be seen from AC's information that these loans exist, therefore investors should know they pose a risk especially in a falling property market. However what AC did not make plain is that their valuations for LTVs are not based on current state of the developments during the time the loan is active, which is the only time relevant to investors as they buy into existing loans when they buy into the AAs. The value of the asset is far lower in this period than at the start or end of the loans so the LTVs stated are meaningless. Also there is no mention of how deep AC are into these loans so there is no way to do any risk assessment. As I stated in the first lock in AC should have been much more open about these loans, current LTVs and % of AAs funds in these loans as these are a major risk to investors but only the fact that they exist is published in the small print. Without these loans lock in would pose less risk to investors and would also occur for a shorter time. There is also the argument of who owns the repayments, if this is P2P then AC are an agent and the investor owns the loans and therefore the repayments so if requested should be paid out to the investor as after all they are the owner and not the property of AC, if AC owns the loans then this is not P2P as advertised.
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Nov 29, 2022 7:14:29 GMT
The notification is headed '22 November'. Did you people on the mail-shot list not get the advanced peek then? archive.ph/uCTPjArgh! My Bad .... 'November 22' is how Armericains state it, like: "Kennedy took a knuckle sandwitch on 'November 22' " Of course '22' refers to the year not the day of the month! [One immediate reaction is a jump in the number of discounted MLA loans from 57 last night, which I was watching, to 83 this morning]
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2022 9:02:22 GMT
I have now totally lost faith in them a nd put my entire investment on withdrawal. A day too late it seems. Your post was very prophetic. I put the few thousand I still had in AC there that was accessible (in theory) on notice to withdrawl a couple of weeks ago. Still, a few weeks too late as well it seems.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2022 9:11:34 GMT
The last paragraph of the email is ridiculous. They are asking us for ideas!!!!! AC is is a farce. Canvassing your customer base for their views on a potential product offering is not a sign of 'high farce'. It's a sign of wanting to take their customers along with them as much as is possible, and in doing so have an offering which also stands best chance of appealing to current non-customers. A company that does that is demonstrating that it is not so arrogant as to assume it knows what and what won't work while ignoring its customers; but instead is trying to involve the stakeholders who in the end will actually determine its success or otherwise.
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alender
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Post by alender on Nov 29, 2022 9:50:12 GMT
The last paragraph of the email is ridiculous. They are asking us for ideas!!!!! AC is is a farce. Canvassing your customer base for their views on a potential product offering is not a sign of 'high farce'. It's a sign of wanting to take their customers along with them as much as is possible, and in doing so have an offering which also stands best chance of appealing to current non-customers. A company that does that is demonstrating that it is not so arrogant as to assume it knows what and what won't work while ignoring its customers; but instead is trying to involve the stakeholders who in the end will actually determine its success or otherwise. All AC want is to take their customers money with them and sucker in more customers, they proved they are arrogant in the way they handled investors in the last lock in especially keeping a cash mountain far longer than necessary to fund future tranches. They only freed up the accounts right at the end when they could see there was more than enough money coming in and there was no need for them to hold onto funds as there were very few worthwhile new loans as the government had already funded these with cheap money. Also they sent out the friends and family of AC to trash the posts of any investor who dared to criticise them on here and trust pilot. If they had the guts and cared about lenders we would see Stuart or other senior members of AC engaging the lenders on here or a question and answer session, but please no more gut wrenching smug arrogant videos from Stuart I don't want to risk the overwhelming temptation to throw something heavy at my screen. Perhaps AC should go the whole hog and rename themselves as the Arrogant Corporation because that is the way they have been acting since lock down.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 29, 2022 10:19:52 GMT
Canvassing your customer base for their views on a potential product offering is not a sign of 'high farce'. It's a sign of wanting to take their customers along with them as much as is possible, and in doing so have an offering which also stands best chance of appealing to current non-customers. A company that does that is demonstrating that it is not so arrogant as to assume it knows what and what won't work while ignoring its customers; but instead is trying to involve the stakeholders who in the end will actually determine its success or otherwise. <snip> If they had the guts and cared about lenders we would see Stuart or other senior members of AC engaging the lenders on here or a question and answer session, but please not more gut wrenching smug videos from Stuart I don't want to risk the overwhelming temptation to throw something heavy at my screen. <snip> AC stopped engaging in a meaningful manner with their lender base many blue moons ago and if there was any 'engagement' it was done in an arrogant and patronising way. A 'we know better' attitude to put it mildly.
It's always been debatable as to whether these black box accounts were true P2P or just a cheap way of booting out the underwriters. I recall the farce with the old ongoing G*** accounts and how many of them have defaulted loans going back ages, but AC refuse to crystallise the loss to avoid using the PF. So lenders are treated with contempt.
This latest 'lock-in' is probably the final nail in the coffin for AC regarding private investors. They will need to cuddle up to their institutional friends who would not tolerate the current actions of AC.
bracknellboy - if AC want ideas then they're going to have to pay for them. AC charge for their services so I don't expect others to provide ideas free although as AC have a huge sense of entitlement I doubt they would agree.
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tonyr
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Post by tonyr on Nov 29, 2022 10:20:32 GMT
I have now totally lost faith in them a nd put my entire investment on withdrawal. A day too late it seems. Your post was very prophetic. I put the few thousand I still had in AC there that was accessible (in theory) on notice to withdrawl a couple of weeks ago. Still, a few weeks too late as well it seems. Over £300k available yesterday. I sold three lots of £10 today at 2%, 3% and 4% discounts. £10 at 1% has not sold.
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rscal
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Post by rscal on Nov 29, 2022 11:00:32 GMT
I put the few thousand I still had in AC there that was accessible (in theory) on notice to withdrawl a couple of weeks ago. Still, a few weeks too late as well it seems. Over £300k available yesterday. I sold three lots of £10 today at 2%, 3% and 4% discounts. £10 at 1% has not sold. Is it still possible as of today to buy-in at discount (going to the front of the investment queue*) then? * " WHAT 'investment queue'?", you say.
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Post by bracknellboy on Nov 29, 2022 11:10:06 GMT
<snip> If they had the guts and cared about lenders we would see Stuart or other senior members of AC engaging the lenders on here or a question and answer session, but please not more gut wrenching smug videos from Stuart I don't want to risk the overwhelming temptation to throw something heavy at my screen. <snip> AC stopped engaging in a meaningful manner with their lender base many blue moons ago and if there was any 'engagement' it was done in an arrogant and patronising way. A 'we know better' attitude to put it mildly.
It's always been debatable as to whether these black box accounts were true P2P or just a cheap way of booting out the underwriters. I recall the farce with the old ongoing G*** accounts and how many of them have defaulted loans going back ages, but AC refuse to crystallise the loss to avoid using the PF. So lenders are treated with contempt.
This latest 'lock-in' is probably the final nail in the coffin for AC regarding private investors. They will need to cuddle up to their institutional friends who would not tolerate the current actions of AC.
bracknellboy - if AC want ideas then they're going to have to pay for them. AC charge for their services so I don't expect others to provide ideas free although as AC have a huge sense of entitlement I doubt they would agree. bugs4me I have no axe to grind for AC. Apart from locked in money I'm pretty much out of P2P full stop, with the only 'accessible' being what I had (have) in AC access accounts. I have no view particularly on what they are currently like since I stopped being particularly interested some while ago. Regardless, the fact that they have said they would welcome comments from their customers on what they are considering as an offering does not make them or anyone else 'a farce'. Other factors might.
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alender
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Post by alender on Nov 29, 2022 12:17:43 GMT
AC stopped engaging in a meaningful manner with their lender base many blue moons ago and if there was any 'engagement' it was done in an arrogant and patronising way. A 'we know better' attitude to put it mildly.
It's always been debatable as to whether these black box accounts were true P2P or just a cheap way of booting out the underwriters. I recall the farce with the old ongoing G*** accounts and how many of them have defaulted loans going back ages, but AC refuse to crystallise the loss to avoid using the PF. So lenders are treated with contempt.
This latest 'lock-in' is probably the final nail in the coffin for AC regarding private investors. They will need to cuddle up to their institutional friends who would not tolerate the current actions of AC.
bracknellboy - if AC want ideas then they're going to have to pay for them. AC charge for their services so I don't expect others to provide ideas free although as AC have a huge sense of entitlement I doubt they would agree. bugs4me I have no axe to grind for AC. Apart from locked in money I'm pretty much out of P2P full stop, with the only 'accessible' being what I had (have) in AC access accounts. I have no view particularly on what they are currently like since I stopped being particularly interested some while ago. Regardless, the fact that they have said they would welcome comments from their customers on what they are considering as an offering does not make them or anyone else 'a farce'. Other factors might. AC have received lots of comments from investors on what they would like to see in the last lock in, however it is up to AC to come up with acceptable solutions to the mess they have created. I suspect a number of the comments would be biased to the position of the investor, small investors would like their money out first, large investors would like a proportional system, new investors would like a last in first out system, older investors a first in first out system, those in the instant access account would like to see that as a priority, those with capital gain would like to see losses crystallised as capital losses especially once the CGT threshold goes down. For what it is worth (as I said I got out as soon as I could so have no skin in this game) It should Not open any new accounts and cut the current investors adrift. First look to cut costs and tell lenders about the cuts so they know they are not the only ones feeling the pain, directors and upper management first in line as they are the ones responsible for the mess. Make the people redundant that pursued the policy that caused the mess. Investigate selling loans and distribute the funds to investors on a pro rata basis. Look for alternative sources of finance. Engauge properly with investors. Repay as much as possible to lenders and do not build another cash mountain. Pursue vigorously defaulted loans with as small as possible cost to lenders, AC should not take any money from this. Lay out loan risks, publish information about loan repayments and commitments to future trances with timescale so investors can see when funds can be returned to them. Set up a voting system for lenders and if anything controversial take a vote. Do not try cleaver tricks like last time these include secondary market, run off accounts, pay small investors off first. Do not set one set of investors against the other like last time. Create an investors action group open to all AA investors which can then engage with AC. It should not try to get new funds from private investors but perhaps from institutions although this is a moot point as no one will put money into AC now especially when there are far safer and better paying investments available, many REITS (if not all) are much safer paying higher yields with better/safer assets. Look to sell of AC to anyone who has the funds and the will to help out the lenders. If it is to survive it should look further than it's own nose and quick commissions, I and many others saw this coming a mile off, if AC are professional they would have seen this before me and taken appropriate action, i.e. no more cheap loans, no longer term loans, no loans with tranches. This should have been put in place until the market was more predictable, if that meant limiting investment into the accounts so be it, better to stop money coming in that block it going out. These are but a few but I suspect AC are only looking for suggestions that keeps them afloat, directors on full pay and more commissions however these are a pipe dream.
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bugs4me
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Post by bugs4me on Nov 29, 2022 14:06:48 GMT
bugs4me I have no axe to grind for AC. Apart from locked in money I'm pretty much out of P2P full stop, with the only 'accessible' being what I had (have) in AC access accounts. I have no view particularly on what they are currently like since I stopped being particularly interested some while ago. Regardless, the fact that they have said they would welcome comments from their customers on what they are considering as an offering does not make them or anyone else 'a farce'. Other factors might. AC have received lots of comments from investors on what they would like to see in the last lock in, however it is up to AC to come up with acceptable solutions to the mess they have created. I suspect a number of the comments would be biased to the position of the investor, small investors would like their money out first, large investors would like a proportional system, new investors would like a last in first out system, older investors a first in first out system, those in the instant access account would like to see that as a priority, those with capital gain would like to see losses crystallised as capital losses especially once the CGT threshold goes down. For what it is worth (as I said I got out as soon as I could so have no skin in this game) It should Not open any new accounts and cut the current investors adrift. First look to cut costs and tell lenders about the cuts so they know they are not the only ones feeling the pain, directors and upper management first in line as they are the ones responsible for the mess. Make the people redundant that pursued the policy that caused the mess. Investigate selling loans and distribute the funds to investors on a pro rata basis. Look for alternative sources of finance. Engauge properly with investors. Repay as much as possible to lenders and do not build another cash mountain. Pursue vigorously defaulted loans with as small as possible cost to lenders, AC should not take any money from this. Lay out loan risks, publish information about loan repayments and commitments to future trances with timescale so investors can see when funds can be returned to them. Set up a voting system for lenders and if anything controversial take a vote. Do not try cleaver tricks like last time these include secondary market, run off accounts, pay small investors off first. Do not set one set of investors against the other like last time. Create an investors action group open to all AA investors which can then engage with AC. It should not try to get new funds from private investors but perhaps from institutions although this is a moot point as no one will put money into AC now especially when there are far safer and better paying investments available, many REITS (if not all) are much safer paying higher yields with better/safer assets. Look to sell of AC to anyone who has the funds and the will to help out the lenders. If it is to survive it should look further than it's own nose and quick commissions, I and many others saw this coming a mile off, if AC are professional they would have seen this before me and taken appropriate action, i.e. no more cheap loans, no longer term loans, no loans with tranches. This should have been put in place until the market was more predictable, if that meant limiting investment into the accounts so be it, better to stop money coming in that block it going out. These are but a few but I suspect AC are only looking for suggestions that keeps them afloat, directors on full pay and more commissions however these are a pipe dream. alender - many good ideas but it's not going to happen. I'm just a casual observer round these parts as like you I got out of AC (along with a few others) after a certain highly senior member of AC made a patronising comment on this forum about us lenders knowing basically s*d all and he was the expert. My immediate thought was the lender was an inconvenient but necessary ingredient for AC. However the inconvenient lender's hard earned cash was being treated with contempt.
Just look at those loans that should have been defaulted/crystallised ages ago but whilst AC can continue to charge monthly monitoring fees...... It borders on the fees being charged by administrators of failed platforms. Nonetheless I believe we have to accept that it is AC first and the lender somewhere else - it's now in their DNA. They have long forgotten that it was the private lender that helped build the business and whilst I fully appreciate that businesses change over time, once you forget who your bread and butter is then effectively you're toast. All I see now is AC milking the system. A system which they devised and have silently changed over time so their interests will always be paramount - irrespective as to how they obtain those financial gains.
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