SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 8, 2022 10:16:26 GMT
Whilst Funding Circle and Rebuilding Society have both closed old P2P accounts for me that contained only long-defaulted loans (by "donating to a charity account" the ownership of any remaining defaulted loan-parts), Assetz tell me they have no process that will let me close my account whilst it contains even a single defaulted loan. And of course, Assetz have yet to write off any defaulted loans, however ancient - I have one that made its last expected recovery payment in March 2015 !!
Has anyone succeeded in getting Assetz to close their account in similar circumstances?
Has anyone made a formal complaint to Assetz over their refusal to let such an account be closed, and/or escalated it to the Financial Ombudsman Service?
I have submitted my own formal complaint today, but wonder if others have already trodden this path?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 29, 2022 9:49:13 GMT
Somewhat predictably, given AC's typical resistance to sensible customer suggestions, AC have flat rejected my complaint and sent me their Final Response letter within 7 days. I have therefore escalated it to the FOS, where it will doubtless sit in a pile for many months before receiving any attention.
AC's position is that "it is not as simple as you suggest" to close an account by donating any residual long-defaulted loan holdings to a "charity account", so that a charity of their choosing would benefit from any future recovery payments. Yet it was extremely simple for Funding Circle to do the exact same thing. I have provided both AC and the Ombudsman a copy of the simple 1-page form that FC asked me to sign before willingly closing my FC account, which I've pasted below for wider information:
Investor Account Closure Letter
To: Funding Circle
From: ………………………….. (the “Investor” or “I”)
We refer to the Investor Terms and Conditions. Unless defined in this letter, capitalised terms have the same meanings given to them in the Investor Terms and Conditions.
References to Funding Circle in this letter mean Funding Circle Limited, Funding Circle Trustee Limited, and/or any other affiliate or member of the Funding Circle group.
In accordance with clause 17 (Ceasing to be an Investor with Funding Circle and termination) of the Investor Terms and Conditions, I am notifying Funding Circle of my wish to close my Investor Account.
By signing this letter, I confirm that:
I have read and understood the provisions of the Investor Terms and Conditions that apply to closing an Investor Account with Funding Circle;
I have sold and transferred all Loan Parts that are capable of being sold or transferred; and
I have withdrawn all available cash balances (to the extent possible) from the Investor Account into the Nominated Bank Account.
I understand that there are certain Loan Parts which cannot be sold or transferred (“Non-Transferable Loan Parts”) (for example, those that relate to late or defaulted Loans).
In order for the Investor Account to be closed, I agree that:
all of the rights, title and interest in all Non-Transferable Loan Parts are and shall be transferred absolutely to Funding Circle; and
all cash amounts that may arise in relation to all Non-Transferable Loan Parts (or to which I would have otherwise been entitled) after the date of this letter shall not be retained by Funding Circle for its own account, and shall be distributed by Funding Circle to a registered charitable organisation of its choice.
Provided that (a) the conditions for Investor Account closure are satisfied and (b) Funding Circle has received all information required by it from the Investor, Funding Circle will close the Investor Account within ten working days of receiving this signed letter from the Investor.
This Investor Account Closure Letter and any non-contractual obligations arising out of, or in connection with, it are governed by and construed in accordance with English law.
Signed ……………………………………………………………
Investor Name:
Date:
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Sept 29, 2022 11:11:44 GMT
I do wonder if AC simply want the FOS to tell them how they should handle the situation....
Did they say why it wasn't simple? I can only assume they are following their own legal advice.
I wonder if as an alternative they would be happy if they were donated to the provision fund rather than a 3rd party?
I am trying to guess what their issues are....
As you say other platforms have managed it...
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 29, 2022 11:29:51 GMT
I do wonder if AC simply want the FOS to tell them how they should handle the situation.... Did they say why it wasn't simple? I can only assume they are following their own legal advice. I wonder if as an alternative they would be happy if they were donated to the provision fund rather than a 3rd party? I am trying to guess what their issues are.... As you say other platforms have managed it... No explanation of the perceived complexity, beyond mention that AC are not permitted to own loans themselves (which of course is NOT what I was suggesting, nor what FC do) Donating to the provision fund strikes me as another logical approach. Presumably there must be some sort of trustee arrangement for the provision fund that could get around the loan ownership restriction. But fundamentally all I got was "Computer says No".
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Sept 29, 2022 11:52:20 GMT
When the PF pays out it takes ownership of a loan and any subsequent recovery goes to the PF.
AC closed some of my investment accounts, they clearly had defaulted loans in which the PF paid out on in full. The loans went somewhere and any recovery however unlikely goes to the PF under the PF rules. The PF took ownership of these loans.
I have 2 loans left in the GBBA1. As it stands I will never be able to close my account as there will be no more PF payouts on these two loans....
Another example, AC have all the wind turbine loans somewhere that failed and they covered. Any recovery of those goes back to AC. I appreciate this is slightly different given the issues with the loans. AC own a portion of these loans now.
I do wonder if they are over complicating your request. I hope it passes the FOS fair and reasonable test....
As you say you are not asking AC themselves to own the loan
I always thought ultimately it was up to us to decide when a loan was worth nothing. I do wonder what right AC have ultimately to say no to a transfer and whether the contract passes the FOS fair and reasonable test.
You could ask the FCA to signpost you to any of their rules that might be relevant, specifically not asking for personal advice. This is sometimes useful in my experience.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 29, 2022 12:19:26 GMT
When the PF pays out it takes ownership of a loan and any subsequent recovery goes to the PF. AC closed some of my investment accounts, they clearly had defaulted loans in which the PF paid out on in full. The loans went somewhere and any recovery however unlikely goes to the PF under the PF rules. The PF took ownership of these loans. I have 2 loans left in the GBBA1. As it stands I will never be able to close my account as there will be no more PF payouts on these two loans....Another example, AC have all the wind turbine loans somewhere that failed and they covered. Any recovery of those goes back to AC. I appreciate this is slightly different given the issues with the loans. AC own a portion of these loans now. I do wonder if they are over complicating your request. I hope it passes the FOS fair and reasonable test.... As you say you are not asking AC themselves to own the loan I always thought ultimately it was up to us to decide when a loan was worth nothing. I do wonder what right AC have ultimately to say no to a transfer and whether the contract passes the FOS fair and reasonable test. You could ask the FCA to signpost you to any of their rules that might be relevant, specifically not asking for personal advice. This is sometimes useful in my experience. The functionality to write off loans in their entirety and therefore close accounts is coming ... honest, theyve promised
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 29, 2022 12:21:18 GMT
I do wonder if AC simply want the FOS to tell them how they should handle the situation.... Did they say why it wasn't simple? I can only assume they are following their own legal advice. I wonder if as an alternative they would be happy if they were donated to the provision fund rather than a 3rd party? I am trying to guess what their issues are.... As you say other platforms have managed it... No explanation of the perceived complexity, beyond mention that AC are not permitted to own loans themselves (which of course is NOT what I was suggesting, nor what FC do) Donating to the provision fund strikes me as another logical approach. Presumably there must be some sort of trustee arrangement for the provision fund that could get around the loan ownership restriction. But fundamentally all I got was "Computer says No". The platform cant, but nothing to stop other AC entities from doing so ... nothing to prevent third party/related party 'skin in the game'
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Sept 29, 2022 16:53:08 GMT
I always thought ultimately it was up to us to decide when a loan was worth nothing. I do wonder what right AC have ultimately to say no to a transfer and whether the contract passes the FOS fair and reasonable test. Frankly this what gets my goat. If I lent money to someone directly, and I concluded there was negligible prospect of further recoveries in future, I could notify them that I was writing off the debt and waiving any rights to the sums outstanding. But having lent through Assetz as my agent, I am barred from communicating with the borrowers and reliant on AC either to write off the loans themselves, acknowledge that I have written off my portion of the loans for myself, or agree to transfer ownership to another party (eg. a charity account). None of which AC will agree to do. As it stands, if I go under a bus tomorrow, my Executor will be faced with resolving the exact same problem. There must be ever increasing numbers of AC customers in the same position, stuck apparently forever in the Hotel California of P2P platforms.
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jo
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Post by jo on Sept 29, 2022 17:33:20 GMT
I always thought ultimately it was up to us to decide when a loan was worth nothing. I do wonder what right AC have ultimately to say no to a transfer and whether the contract passes the FOS fair and reasonable test. Frankly this what gets my goat. If I lent money to someone directly, and I concluded there was negligible prospect of further recoveries in future, I could notify them that I was writing off the debt and waiving any rights to the sums outstanding. But having lent through Assetz as my agent, I am barred from communicating with the borrowers and reliant on AC either to write off the loans themselves, acknowledge that I have written off my portion of the loans for myself, or agree to transfer ownership to another party (eg. a charity account). None of which AC will agree to do. As it stands, if I go under a bus tomorrow, my Executor will be faced with resolving the exact same problem. There must be ever increasing numbers of AC customers in the same position, stuck apparently forever in the Hotel California of P2P platforms. You raise an important point and one that Assetz don't seem to give a monkey's about. They prefer to bask in their never never land of pretence and obfuscation about 'systems' not being able to write off loans etc. I'd put it much more strongly if not for respect for the owners of this website.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Oct 2, 2022 13:19:35 GMT
As you say other platforms have managed it... No explanation of the perceived complexity, ... But fundamentally all I got was "Computer says No". Isn't it more the case that "We never programmed the computer how to say Yes, we never foresaw that this could happen" ? In the same way, it's impossible to write off failed MLA loans where no payments are being made, no recovery is being pursued, and yet interest is still accrued and accruing, on a holding you will never see back, and AC won't cover from the provision fund? It cannot be done, because there is no provision in ACs systems to have a loan END in that way. It can't happen. Unthinkable. Now, either that's a competence failure, to not think of that scenario -- or spectacular arrogance/ to think that there is no way one of *our* loans could fail. We vet the companies. We fully monitor the loans. We take security, real tangible asset based security. We work with defaulters. We pursue non-payers through the courts to get lenders money! ... therefore NO loan can ever NEED to be written off ...
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 2, 2022 16:28:28 GMT
No explanation of the perceived complexity, ... But fundamentally all I got was "Computer says No". Isn't it more the case that "We never programmed the computer how to say Yes, we never foresaw that this could happen" ? In the same way, it's impossible to write off failed MLA loans where no payments are being made, no recovery is being pursued, and yet interest is still accrued and accruing, on a holding you will never see back, and AC won't cover from the provision fund? It cannot be done, because there is no provision in ACs systems to have a loan END in that way. It can't happen. Unthinkable. Now, either that's a competence failure, to not think of that scenario -- or spectacular arrogance/ to think that there is no way one of *our* loans could fail. We vet the companies. We fully monitor the loans. We take security, real tangible asset based security. We work with defaulters. We pursue non-payers through the courts to get lenders money! ... therefore NO loan can ever NEED to be written off ... They've sorted the issue of interest continuing to accrue by the simple expedient of setting the rate to zero on default. Whether this complies with COBS disclosure rules is probably a mute point as the explanation for the nullification is the unlikelihood of the post default interest being recovered (internal records do keep track of you trust AC competence just in case) As for the ability to write off loans, numerous replies to Q's have given a timeframe for its arrival but equally it's been suggested that other things take priority so the deadlines pass unfulfilled. So much for the commitment to retail. To paraphrase a certain E Blackadder the Ape creatures of bust platforms have mastered this, so you would have thought AC could get beyond a very small casserole!
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Oct 9, 2022 20:17:10 GMT
Isn't it more the case that "We never programmed the computer how to say Yes, we never foresaw that this could happen" ? In the same way, it's impossible to write off failed MLA loans where no payments are being made, no recovery is being pursued, and yet interest is still accrued and accruing, on a holding you will never see back, and AC won't cover from the provision fund? It cannot be done, because there is no provision in ACs systems to have a loan END in that way. It can't happen. Unthinkable. Now, either that's a competence failure, to not think of that scenario -- or spectacular arrogance/ to think that there is no way one of *our* loans could fail. We vet the companies. We fully monitor the loans. We take security, real tangible asset based security. We work with defaulters. We pursue non-payers through the courts to get lenders money! ... therefore NO loan can ever NEED to be written off ... They've sorted the issue of interest continuing to accrue by the simple expedient of setting the rate to zero on default. In some cases maybe. #330 St*** D***n still accruing away at 12% -- no pursuit or recovery being taken here (around Jun 2021 shrugged and moved on from this on, after admitting they were not going to be able to do anything) #26 Rub**** claimed at 15% -- accrual continuing but not at a level compatible with an actual 15% (my spreadsheet converts the claimed rate into a pence-per-7-days expected "next" accrued figure, this one has been off for months) I may not calculate to 15 decimal places of femtopence, but I can see mathematical ineptitude.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 9, 2022 20:52:59 GMT
They've sorted the issue of interest continuing to accrue by the simple expedient of setting the rate to zero on default. In some cases maybe. #330 St*** D***n still accruing away at 12% -- no pursuit or recovery being taken here (around Jun 2021 shrugged and moved on from this on, after admitting they were not going to be able to do anything) #26 Rub**** claimed at 15% -- accrual continuing but not at a level compatible with an actual 15% (my spreadsheet converts the claimed rate into a pence-per-7-days expected "next" accrued figure, this one has been off for months) I may not calculate to 15 decimal places of femtopence, but I can see mathematical ineptitude. True, there are 5 loans that for some reason the expedient has not been applied to the oddest being Eppy as Ippy has been.
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jcb208
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Post by jcb208 on Oct 10, 2022 14:22:07 GMT
I would like to close my Assetz account having just loans left in GBBA and GBAA2 which have no chance of repaying even through the now depleted provision fund as no way will I invest with them again.I can see these accounts still active for years
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Oct 11, 2022 11:07:21 GMT
I would like to close my Assetz account having just loans left in GBBA and GBAA2 which have no chance of repaying even through the now depleted provision fund as no way will I invest with them again.I can see these accounts still active for years All I can suggest is to follow the formal complaint route too. I suspect only if enough people do so will AC bother to make it possible.
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