cb25
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Post by cb25 on Mar 21, 2023 11:13:37 GMT
I received a confused reply from CP. I think what they meant to say is that the loan and project numbers are now correct for whichever portfolio you have selected. They also said that the rates do not change depending on which portfolio you are looking at, as these are your combined average returns and rates. I'll write back to them when I get time to point out how illogical and confusing it will be to have a table of stats where some of the stats relate to the selected portfolio, but others do not, with no indication as to which stats are on which basis. This is becoming tiresome. I sent them the following yesterday, have yet to get a reply: "Nice to see the new 'returns' figures (Realised Average Return, Contracted Average Return and Current Contract Rate) shown on the dashboard. However, the figures shown are the same regardless of whether one is viewing the Dashboard (total portfolio), Standard or IFISA portfolios. For the latter two cases, though the number of loans shown reflect that subset of loans, the Return/Rate figures still reflect the portfolio as a whole. If people aren't aware of this, the figures could mislead. Shouldn't CP either show the figures relevant to the loans being displayed (Dashboard(all), Standard or IFISA) OR make it clear what the figures represent?"
EDIT: Just received CP's reply: "We really appreciate your feedback, and this has been passed onto the wider team. The rates and returns figures remain the same whether on your 'Standard' or 'IFISA' dashboards as these are an average rates and returns of all of your investments in your CrowdProperty account." (my use of bold)
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Post by scrumper on Mar 21, 2023 12:56:36 GMT
I see the Total Portfolio & Payback bar chart now splits overdue loans over four time periods, from 0-3 months to 12+ months. In my view they ought to be differentiated by colour at least from loans which are not overdue.
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Post by lotus_eater on Mar 22, 2023 14:52:48 GMT
They have been a bit crafty here (not sure if anyone else has noticed)? Loans that have been given an extension or had the can kicked down the road from the original payback date for some reason are now not listed as late or delayed. Before the update I had over 9k listed as "Due", and now it's zero. There are a bunch of loans that were supposed to pay back months ago that are not now included as delayed or late as it appears they have been re-termed.
Return is not realistic either. They list my "Realized Return" at 8.00% where in reality it's closer to 5% over the 3+ years I've been with them.
Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out.
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Ace
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Post by Ace on Mar 22, 2023 16:14:01 GMT
They have been a bit crafty here (not sure if anyone else has noticed)? Loans that have been given an extension or had the can kicked down the road from the original payback date for some reason are now not listed as late or delayed. Before the update I had over 9k listed as "Due", and now it's zero. There are a bunch of loans that were supposed to pay back months ago that are not now included as delayed or late as it appears they have been re-termed. This certainly hasn't happened on my account. Are you sure that you haven't misunderstood the new loan breakdown? Return is not realistic either. They list my "Realized Return" at 8.00% where in reality it's closer to 5% over the 3+ years I've been with them. The Realised Return is the return you've received on your loans that have actually completed. I.e. the weighted average of the return on your completed loans. Mine looks to be about right at 8.18%. It won't include any cash drag and won't include any live loans you're in. My current return including these factors is 5.08%, according to my own calculations. I'd agree that they could make it clearer as to what the figures actually represent. I've written to them to ask them to do this and to make all figures on the page relate to the selected portfolio, in line with all other info on the page. Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out. I think this might be the base of your misunderstanding of the statistics. The loans listed under "Due" relate to active loans that have not yet reached their repayment dates. Within that section are subsections of times until the loans are due to finish. E.g. under "Due -> 12+ Months" you will only see those loans that have more than 12 months to go before their repayment date. So, since you've been drawing down for some time, this will be zero for you. The loans that are late are listed in the lower section under "Overdue".
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Post by overthehill on Mar 22, 2023 16:18:28 GMT
They have been a bit crafty here (not sure if anyone else has noticed)? Loans that have been given an extension or had the can kicked down the road from the original payback date for some reason are now not listed as late or delayed. Before the update I had over 9k listed as "Due", and now it's zero. There are a bunch of loans that were supposed to pay back months ago that are not now included as delayed or late as it appears they have been re-termed. Return is not realistic either. They list my "Realized Return" at 8.00% where in reality it's closer to 5% over the 3+ years I've been with them. Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out.
Same boat. I think they'll float but I'm reducing exposure, must be about 9 months since I've invested. Severals warning signs I don't like and several features I don't like. It's also noticeable how all loans now seem to be multi-tranched, rolled up interest and getting bigger which equals more complexity and added risk. Then I look at the problem loans in my now aging portfolio! The stats look about right to me as I keep my own spreadsheet due to a few past discrepencies I've experienced.
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Post by lotus_eater on Mar 22, 2023 16:26:47 GMT
They have been a bit crafty here (not sure if anyone else has noticed)? Loans that have been given an extension or had the can kicked down the road from the original payback date for some reason are now not listed as late or delayed. Before the update I had over 9k listed as "Due", and now it's zero. There are a bunch of loans that were supposed to pay back months ago that are not now included as delayed or late as it appears they have been re-termed. This certainly hasn't happened on my account. Are you sure that you haven't misunderstood the new loan breakdown? Return is not realistic either. They list my "Realized Return" at 8.00% where in reality it's closer to 5% over the 3+ years I've been with them. The Realised Return is the return you've received on your loans that have actually completed. I.e. the weighted average of the return on your completed loans. Mine looks to be about right at 8.18%. It won't include any cash drag and won't include any live loans you're in. My current return including these factors is 5.08%, according to my own calculations. I'd agree that they could make it clearer as to what the figures actually represent. I've written to them to ask them to do this and to make all figures on the page relate to the selected portfolio, in line with all other info on the page. Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out. I think this might be the base of your misunderstanding of the statistics. The loans listed under "Due" relate to active loans that have not yet reached their repayment dates. Within that section are subsections of times until the loans are due to finish. E.g. under "Due -> 12+ Months" you will only see those loans that have more than 12 months to go before their repayment date. So, since you've been drawing down for some time, this will be zero for you. The loans that are late are listed in the lower section under "Overdue". I see now that I have made a few misinterpretations (thanks for pointing that out). For me, after 3+ years though, my other accounts (Kuflink, Loanpad, easyMoney etc.) are all showing returns based on expected percentages. CP is not, that's all I can tell. As far as late loans go, you're correct there as well. I should have paid more attention (I don't pay a lot to CP anyway as I really want out). I was looking at the "Due" section and totally missed that everything had moved down (DOH). Back to not looking so good when over half of your loans are late: 
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Ace
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Post by Ace on Mar 22, 2023 16:54:53 GMT
I see now that I have made a few misinterpretations (thanks for pointing that out). For me, after 3+ years though, my other accounts (Kuflink, Loanpad, easyMoney etc.) are all showing returns based on expected percentages. CP is not, that's all I can tell. As far as late loans go, you're correct there as well. I should have paid more attention (I don't pay a lot to CP anyway as I really want out). I was looking at the "Due" section and totally missed that everything had moved down (DOH). Back to not looking so good when over half of your loans are late: CP does show your expected return, it's just that they split them into the achieved return from completed loans (Realised Average Return), the contracted rate on completed loans (Contracted Average Return), and expected returns from active loans (Current Contract Rate). The difference between the Realised Average Return and the Contracted Average Return will be due to any extra interest paid on overdue loans, and when they get them, any crystallised losses. Hopefully, this discussion will make it obvious to CP that they need to do a better job of explaining their statistics. I'm not trying to bash CP here. I belive they are one of the best P2P investments available in their sector (probably the best), but it does irk me that they don't do a better job on updating, testing and explaining their platform.
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Ukmikk
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Post by Ukmikk on Mar 23, 2023 17:35:05 GMT
What really concerns me, apart from the volume of overdue, is just how late some of these loans are.
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Mar 23, 2023 22:50:34 GMT
Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out. You'll be lucky. I have been trying to exit for over 3 years, and it is now over a year since there was any funds to withdraw. All my remaining loans are zombies, hiding in long grass having been kicked down the road and not paying anything. On the bright side, my total interest exceeds my remaining portfolio so I cannot make a net loss on the platform, unlike a similarly named platform with the word order reversed.
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Post by lotus_eater on Mar 24, 2023 7:01:47 GMT
I see now that I have made a few misinterpretations (thanks for pointing that out). For me, after 3+ years though, my other accounts (Kuflink, Loanpad, easyMoney etc.) are all showing returns based on expected percentages. CP is not, that's all I can tell. As far as late loans go, you're correct there as well. I should have paid more attention (I don't pay a lot to CP anyway as I really want out). I was looking at the "Due" section and totally missed that everything had moved down (DOH). Back to not looking so good when over half of your loans are late: CP does show your expected return, it's just that they split them into the achieved return from completed loans (Realised Average Return), the contracted rate on completed loans (Contracted Average Return), and expected returns from active loans (Current Contract Rate). The difference between the Realised Average Return and the Contracted Average Return will be due to any extra interest paid on overdue loans, and when they get them, any crystallised losses. Hopefully, this discussion will make it obvious to CP that they need to do a better job of explaining their statistics. I'm not trying to bash CP here. I belive they are one of the best P2P investments available in their sector (probably the best), but it does irk me that they don't do a better job on updating, testing and explaining their platform. I understand what you're saying and CP should do a better job of explaining instead of trying to pull the wool (my opinion). Still doesn't change the fact that my XIRR over the past 3.5 years with CP is 5.29%. Kuflink is 7.55% return over the same period using the same calculation. No way to get around the numbers.
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Post by lotus_eater on Mar 24, 2023 7:03:34 GMT
Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out. You'll be lucky. I have been trying to exit for over 3 years, and it is now over a year since there was any funds to withdraw. All my remaining loans are zombies, hiding in long grass having been kicked down the road and not paying anything. On the bright side, my total interest exceeds my remaining portfolio so I cannot make a net loss on the platform, unlike a similarly named platform with the word order reversed. I think I'm past wishing for luck now and into prayers, or perhaps some sort of magic :-)
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Mar 24, 2023 10:12:28 GMT
I understand what you're saying and CP should do a better job of explaining instead of trying to pull the wool (my opinion). Still doesn't change the fact that my XIRR over the past 3.5 years with CP is 5.29%. Kuflink is 7.55% return over the same period using the same calculation. No way to get around the numbers. I have already exited this platform. My XIRR could be as high 8.04% for two successful projects if I withdrew money automatically as soon as the borrowers repaid. Dashboard showing 8.47% Realised AR, However, my XIRR is only 5.94% due to idle cash left on the platform for months.
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Ukmikk
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Post by Ukmikk on Mar 24, 2023 11:42:02 GMT
Personally I'm getting the heck out of CP as I have a bad gut feeling about them. Been trying to get out for over a year actually but so many loans delayed and stalled I'm guessing it's going to take me another 3 years to get out. You'll be lucky. I have been trying to exit for over 3 years, and it is now over a year since there was any funds to withdraw. All my remaining loans are zombies, hiding in long grass having been kicked down the road and not paying anything. On the bright side, my total interest exceeds my remaining portfolio so I cannot make a net loss on the platform, unlike a similarly named platform with the word order reversed. Do you have any idea what proportion of your overall investment these remaining zombies represent? I'm in withdrawal mode and I'm wondering what I'm likely to be left with stuck on the platform. Cheers.
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Ace
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Post by Ace on Mar 24, 2023 16:14:42 GMT
CP does show your expected return, it's just that they split them into the achieved return from completed loans (Realised Average Return), the contracted rate on completed loans (Contracted Average Return), and expected returns from active loans (Current Contract Rate). The difference between the Realised Average Return and the Contracted Average Return will be due to any extra interest paid on overdue loans, and when they get them, any crystallised losses. Hopefully, this discussion will make it obvious to CP that they need to do a better job of explaining their statistics. I'm not trying to bash CP here. I belive they are one of the best P2P investments available in their sector (probably the best), but it does irk me that they don't do a better job on updating, testing and explaining their platform. I understand what you're saying and CP should do a better job of explaining instead of trying to pull the wool (my opinion). Still doesn't change the fact that my XIRR over the past 3.5 years with CP is 5.29%. Kuflink is 7.55% return over the same period using the same calculation. No way to get around the numbers. Firstly I'd like to repeat that I'm happy to invest in both CP and K. I think that they both provide decent returns for investors for the level of risk, and have proven themselves for many years. Neither are anywhere near perfect. They both have faults and annoyances which could and should have been addressed by now. Right now I believe that CP give a higher return for a lower risk than K do (I'll explain further down). I believe that K currently offer a better investor platform interaction experience. Whilst I'm very frustrated by CP's lack of effort on fixing their investor-side issues, for me the better risk/reward level sways me towards CP. I have 6 times more funds invested with CP than I do with K. CP is a core part of my portfolio. K is a very welcome minor addition for diversification. To address your points directly: I don't think CP are " trying to pull the wool". The recent addition of the platform stats to the dashboard, once they fix them so that they all relate to the selected portfolio, is very welcome. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be well understood. This wasn't helped by them being incorrect when first released. It would be great if they could also provide an XIRR measure that would show something close to your own calculated XIRR. I say close because I'm presuming that your measure includes platform cash drag, and no platforms include this in their stats because they all want to show themselves in the best light. You could consider this to be "pulling wool", but if so, it would equally apply to all platforms. One of the valid reasons for this is that part of that drag will be the investor's fault for not transferring every penny off and on the platform to absolutely minimise the drag (as benaj has eloquently illustrated in his post above). I suspect that one reason they don't provide XIRRs is that these are very computationally expensive compared to the stats provided (because the XIRR algorithm is iterative, unlike the deterministic ones provided). IMO, the "pulling wool" accusation would be more accurately aimed at K for the rates they advertise for their fixed term accounts. I regularly see adverts on P2PFN where they state "up to 9.73% gross per annum" where the true AER is up to 8.25%, which isn't even mentioned. I'm awaiting an FCA investigation into whether this actually breaks any regulation, but it's at best misleading IMO. Your comment: " Still doesn't change the fact that my XIRR over the past 3.5 years with CP is 5.29%. Kuflink is 7.55% return over the same period using the same calculation". The reason that K looks better in this respect is due to the way that interest is paid on the two platforms. I'm guessing that your K XIRR of 7.55 is because you've selected monthly interest payments (or you've chosen to be paid at maturity but have included the accrued interest in your calculation, or you've included referral bonuses). The CP XIRR is currently lower because you will have many loans which don't pay any interest until maturity. So, you will have substantial accrued interest on CP that isn't currently included in your XIRR. Assuming no losses on either platform (both are bound to eventually suffer some losses, but these should be minor compared to profits in a well diversified portfolio) and assuming equivalent loans are selected, the final XIRR on CP will end up higher than the final XIRR on K. That's because the same loans (1st charge, no tiers higher than 1, and similar LTVs) have consistently higher rates on CP. Finally, why I believe that CP give a higher return for a lower risk than K. I'm ignoring K's fixed term products here because CP don't have equivalents. CP generally pay investors higher rates and charge borrowers lower rates for equivalent loans. CP only do first charge loans, so you have to discount all K loans in tiers higher than 1 because these are effectively higher charges, which are a far higher risk. And you obviously need to discount all second charge loans on K. So, K loans with similar rates to CP have to be excluded as they are not equivalent. For balance, there are other factors that need to be taken into account, such as the fact that K offers an SM, which makes them more attractive for investors that don't want to invest through to maturity (or for those that use the practise of trying to sell all of their loans a month or so before completion to avoid potential overruns). And K is more suitable for those that prefer to invest for fixed(ish) terms and be totally hands-off with rates up to 8.25%. Or, like me, for investors that want a diversification play.
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Mar 24, 2023 22:02:47 GMT
You'll be lucky. I have been trying to exit for over 3 years, and it is now over a year since there was any funds to withdraw. All my remaining loans are zombies, hiding in long grass having been kicked down the road and not paying anything. On the bright side, my total interest exceeds my remaining portfolio so I cannot make a net loss on the platform, unlike a similarly named platform with the word order reversed. Do you have any idea what proportion of your overall investment these remaining zombies represent? I'm in withdrawal mode and I'm wondering what I'm likely to be left with stuck on the platform. Cheers. 7.5% by value, but I don't know how relevant to your portfolio.
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