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Post by moonraker on Oct 15, 2024 8:15:52 GMT
Over the past 22 months I've had (too) many visits to hospitals (and generally appreciate the staff's care), but between 60 and 90% of the nurses and doctors appear to be of overseas origin. So do half the carers who visit a neighbour four times a day.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 15, 2024 8:22:54 GMT
Have you checked out the dating app? I've see many profiles with foreign background working in the NHS as doctors.
TBH, if I need medical consultation or treatment, I don't care where they are from as long as they are competent, passionate and not doing half ass / wrong job.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 15, 2024 9:25:36 GMT
back in 2008 the BMA voted to restrict the number of training places www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748 that decision has never been reversed as far as I know, in any industry such a vote would be illegal as it would count as restraint of trade and maybe even operating a closed shop
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 15, 2024 10:00:02 GMT
back in 2008 the BMA voted to restrict the number of training places www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748 that decision has never been reversed as far as I know, in any industry such a vote would be illegal as it would count as restraint of trade and maybe even operating a closed shop Fine, and that vote and the rationale put forward by its supporters is disgraceful. However, none of that answers the key questions: a) How did/can the BMA vote actually prohibit the government from increasing places at med school b) when and if did it cease to have any practical effect? To my knowledge the BMA does not have a formal veto on what the government decides to do, even if it does have an influence. A motion of the BMA could of course result in existing members indulging in vetoes/guerilla tactics in the workplace to effect it. The vote was 16 years ago now. I think whether or not the vote was formally reversed is irrelevant, given it runs contra to existing BMA policy. But I would be extremely interested to know whether it had an effect on government training planning for a period, and if so for how long.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 15, 2024 10:44:14 GMT
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duck
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Post by duck on Oct 15, 2024 12:31:33 GMT
...... TBH, if I need medical consultation or treatment, I don't care where they are from as long as they are competent, passionate and not doing half ass / wrong job. After an accident I was left with a thumb that wouldn't move and was extremely painful when touched. After 18 months and a fair number of doctors I was referred to the senior consultant. He appeared with half a dozen students in tow. After a 5 second examination he said "I don't know what is wrong with your thumb, you may get 20% use back and that will be good enough for you." At the time I was working as a stress engineer at Airbus so I replied "Do you know what I do for a living? I design the parts that join the wings to the fuselage of aircraft. Just think when you next fly that I may have thought '20% strong enough that's good enough'." The students all took a step back ..... (6 months later my thumb moved for the first time in 2 years)
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 15, 2024 13:53:51 GMT
Over the past 22 months I've had (too) many visits to hospitals (and generally appreciate the staff's care), but between 60 and 90% of the nurses and doctors appear to be of overseas origin. So do half the carers who visit a neighbour four times a day. Don't say that or you'll be accused of racism which of course I'm sure couldn't be further from the truth. Speaking for myself, I don't give a damn what colour or ethnicity they hail from so long as english is their main language and they were educated here from secondary school at least. I have two issues with this: 1/ Communication - Its hard enough anyway without a language barrier. Any qualification to speak a language is never anything like being able to speak it natively. 2/ Quality - Our competition into medical school post-A-level are among the highest in the world. It is very difficult to achieve and frequently a full set of As is not enough as one needs extra stars these days to differentiate not to mention interviews at some med schools. Money from mummy or daddy will not help as it may in some countries. When a doctor comes in from abroad, he/she was trained in his/her own country which often does not pick the absolute academic cream as we do. Sure, they pass their medical exams (hopefully thoroughly verified) and need to prove they are qualified but they are not in the same class as doctors who were originally selected using the highest possible criteria.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 15, 2024 13:58:04 GMT
back in 2008 the BMA voted to restrict the number of training places www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748 that decision has never been reversed as far as I know, in any industry such a vote would be illegal as it would count as restraint of trade and maybe even operating a closed shop Fine, and that vote and the rationale put forward by its supporters is disgraceful. However, none of that answers the key questions: a) How did/can the BMA vote actually prohibit the government from increasing places at med school b) when and if did it cease to have any practical effect? To my knowledge the BMA does not have a formal veto on what the government decides to do, even if it does have an influence. A motion of the BMA could of course result in existing members indulging in vetoes/guerilla tactics in the workplace to effect it. The vote was 16 years ago now. I think whether or not the vote was formally reversed is irrelevant, given it runs contra to existing BMA policy. But I would be extremely interested to know whether it had an effect on government training planning for a period, and if so for how long. The BMA is essentially a union for doctors so of course it doesn't make these decisions but it is a very powerful union so has a lot of influence.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 15, 2024 14:06:07 GMT
Fine, and that vote and the rationale put forward by its supporters is disgraceful. However, none of that answers the key questions: a) How did/can the BMA vote actually prohibit the government from increasing places at med school b) when and if did it cease to have any practical effect? To my knowledge the BMA does not have a formal veto on what the government decides to do, even if it does have an influence. A motion of the BMA could of course result in existing members indulging in vetoes/guerilla tactics in the workplace to effect it. The vote was 16 years ago now. I think whether or not the vote was formally reversed is irrelevant, given it runs contra to existing BMA policy. But I would be extremely interested to know whether it had an effect on government training planning for a period, and if so for how long. The BMA is essentially a union for doctors so of course it doesn't make these decisions but it is a very powerful union so has a lot of influence. I am aware of what the BMA is and isn't. Doctors get trained by doctors and doctors have a lot of say in the running of hospitals (well used to have a lot of say). Which in turn presumably have control over the number of registrar positions that they offer. Without which trainee doctors cannot do their training. So they COULD have a lot of control over decisions on the number of places made available for trainee doctors at med schools, not just 'political influence'. My question remains: how much control or influence in practise, not theory, do they actually have?
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 15, 2024 14:56:35 GMT
Sorry to hear your communication problems with the doctors, Mike. The simple truth, even the private sector have "international doctors". Are they less qualified? I assume most "professionals" working in this demanding industry carrying on studying with their CPDs.
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Post by moonraker on Oct 15, 2024 16:56:16 GMT
Over the past 22 months I've had (too) many visits to hospitals (and generally appreciate the staff's care), but between 60 and 90% of the nurses and doctors appear to be of overseas origin. So do half the carers who visit a neighbour four times a day. Don't say that or you'll be accused of racism which of course I'm sure couldn't be further from the truth. I think I mentioned earlier the occasion when a friend of Asian heritage was in the room when I listened to a message an Indian doctor had left on my phone. Afterwards she remarked that she'd found him difficult to understand.The half-dozen kindest nurses I've meet in recent months have been black.The least empathetic medico I've encountered in the past two years was mid-European, though there was a gruff Scot ...
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james100
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Post by james100 on Oct 15, 2024 16:58:27 GMT
www.statista.com/statistics/1376359/health-and-health-system-ranking-of-countries-worldwide/ is interesting...might have to scroll down a bit for UK at #34. Japan at #2 had about half the number of medical graduates per capita than UK. Point is, healthcare system outcome is not a simple direct correlation between number of home grown doctors relative to the population (in this case, Japan's cultural attitudes, efficiency of healthcare systems integration etc are massive factors) imo.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 15, 2024 17:41:54 GMT
No idea where this “doctor” is trained, but I will have difficulty understanding Scouse
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 15, 2024 19:05:37 GMT
www.statista.com/statistics/1376359/health-and-health-system-ranking-of-countries-worldwide/ is interesting...might have to scroll down a bit for UK at #34. Japan at #2 had about half the number of medical graduates per capita than UK. Point is, healthcare system outcome is not a simple direct correlation between number of home grown doctors relative to the population (in this case, Japan's cultural attitudes, efficiency of healthcare systems integration etc are massive factors) imo. I couldn't see the number of med grads per capita in that link? But surely its the number of qualified doctors that you might look at when comparing medical systems and general health? Home grown doctors. It depends which home and how difficult it is in that home to qualify as a doctor I would suggest.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 15, 2024 19:07:57 GMT
No idea where this “doctor” is trained, but I will have difficulty understanding Scouse Which could be a problem were you to work as a doctor in The Wirral or Merseyside.
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