ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 9, 2023 10:34:00 GMT
As of September 2021, the US debt ceiling was set at $28.4 trillion. (Source: ChatGPT)
Considering the Debt Ceiling keeps getting raised, and it's almost certainly NEVER going to lower/be paid down, I guess you have to ask yourself "When, and how is this all likely to end?"
Don't think you need crystal balls for that one....😉
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 9, 2023 10:52:27 GMT
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 9, 2023 12:40:08 GMT
I am far from an Economist, wot's the eventual result then?
Do we see Yanks (and The Rest of The West) with wheelbarrows of Dollars, like the German Papiermark in the Weimar Republic of the early 20s?
Whilst I am no Econimist, ISTM that The West is on a deadly downward spiral ever since foolishly abandoning The Gold Standard?
Maggie was right, as a very wise housewife she knew that you should never spend more than what you have, just tighten your belt?
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 9, 2023 12:45:43 GMT
"....Japan's literally twice the US - ~270%"
Technically, and to all intents and purposes, Bankrupt then?
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IFISAcava
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Post by IFISAcava on May 9, 2023 12:55:40 GMT
"....Japan's literally twice the US - ~270%"Technically, and to all intents and purposes, Bankrupt then? except Japan owns most of its own debt, so it can decide whether to bankrupt itself, whether to default on debt to itself, whether to give itself a haircut, etc. All very circular.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 9, 2023 13:16:07 GMT
I am far from an Economist, wot's the eventual result then? Well, that's more to do with the debt itself, rather than the ceiling? Think of it as the ceiling being like your overdraft or credit card limit - but the actual debt is, well, what you actually owe. It's all very well having a £20k card limit and owing £2k, if you can afford to repay the £2k - but only having a £1500 limit and needing to put £2k on the card is a PITA. If you can control your spending like the kind of person who should have a credit card, then the limit is academic if adequate. Oh, and... www.snopes.com/fact-check/gop-debt-ceiling-trump-presidency
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ozboy
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Post by ozboy on May 9, 2023 14:07:32 GMT
"....Japan's literally twice the US - ~270%"Technically, and to all intents and purposes, Bankrupt then? except Japan owns most of its own debt, so it can decide whether to bankrupt itself, whether to default on debt to itself, whether to give itself a haircut, etc. All very circular. To my feeble mind that seems a recipe for eventual disaster?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on May 9, 2023 14:35:35 GMT
except Japan owns most of its own debt, so it can decide whether to bankrupt itself, whether to default on debt to itself, whether to give itself a haircut, etc. All very circular. To my feeble mind that seems a recipe for eventual disaster? It is. There are five (maybe 6) things that scare the out of me at the moment:- 1. The War in Ukraine. 2. A potential (likely?) war between China and the US over Taiwan. 3. The global debt crisis. 4. Climate change. 5. The prospect of a US default (largely because of their dysfunctional politics). 6. (maybe AI). wrt to 3., whether it's acknowledged or not, it exists now. Most developed nation governments (the US, the UK, most of the EU, Japan etc) are in hock up to their eyeballs. If you exclude resource based economies much the same can be said of the developing world / emerging markets too (Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, Russia, much of Africa etc). China is a slightly special case, but things are so opaque there it's hard to tell just how much of a local government, SOE and property developer debt hole there is. The figures for 2021 are here. Those for 2023 are going to be worse. This was the case before COVID, before Brexit, and before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, all of which have exacerbated the problem (ofc Brexit being a singularly UK focused issue). Demographics combined with political cravenness are going to exacerbate the problem pretty much everywhere. It was also the case prior to many countries signing up to green their economies, which, whilst necessary, is going to be extremely expensive. Then add a hefty bill for increased defense spending globally. Addressing it is going to take a combination of:- a) decreased government spending / more efficient provision of government services (so we'll need to pay the NHS, police, armed forces, teachers, civil servants etc less - good luck with that!). b) increased taxation. c) growth (how? especially in Britain thanks to Brexit? NIMBYs want growth somewhere else...), a particularly acute problem because of demographics and resistance to immigration. d) inflate the debt away (making everybody poorer). e) Putin and Xi not being dickheads (good luck with that!). On an individual level I can't think of anything to do that's better than owning inflation resistant assets, namely property and equities. But property is over-valued and highly likely to see government tax raids, and equities are a) toppy anyway, b) subject to increased corporate taxation and c) bare more tail risk than at any other point in my lifetime. I'm not feeling particularly optimistic. It's going to be a very tough few decades.
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aj
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Post by aj on May 9, 2023 15:24:57 GMT
I've always considered government bonds a poor investment; they always seem to yield below inflation; I suspect they're issued in order to write other peoples money off through devaluation.
There's only a problem if governments start to struggle to sell new debt and there still seems to be a ready supply of buyers, though I can't figure out why!*
*I get that banks are forced to buy the things through CET ratios, and assume pension/insurance funds have a similar obligation in place. Not sure why foreign governments buy each others debt (Diplomacy?).
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james100
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Post by james100 on May 9, 2023 17:10:30 GMT
I am far from an Economist, wot's the eventual result then? Do we see Yanks (and The Rest of The West) with wheelbarrows of Dollars, like the German Papiermark in the Weimar Republic of the early 20s? Whilst I am no Econimist, ISTM that The West is on a deadly downward spiral ever since foolishly abandoning The Gold Standard? Maggie was right, as a very wise housewife she knew that you should never spend more than what you have, just tighten your belt?I remember reading that her political views were very much influenced by her early career as a research chemist....I would guess her second career as a tax barrister was also quite formative
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on May 9, 2023 17:58:04 GMT
There are five (maybe 6) things that scare the out of me at the moment:- 1. The War in Ukraine. 2. A potential (likely?) war between China and the US over Taiwan. 3. The global debt crisis. 4. Climate change. 5. The prospect of a US default (largely because of their dysfunctional politics). 6. (maybe AI). ... Addressing it is going to take a combination of:- a) decreased government spending / more efficient provision of government services (so we'll need to pay the NHS, police, armed forces, teachers, civil servants etc less - good luck with that!). b) increased taxation. c) growth (how? especially in Britain thanks to Brexit? NIMBYs want growth somewhere else...), a particularly acute problem because of demographics and resistance to immigration. d) inflate the debt away (making everybody poorer). e) Putin and Xi not being dickheads (good luck with that!). That all seems pretty much on-the-head. We're shafted, aren't we? c - growth. Ah, the fabled paper-unicorn of growth. Easy to hand-wave that one, of course (short-to-medium term, at least), if it's all built on sand and debt. e - Xi will have a sensible succession plan - while Putin's short-term, and his viable succession has mostly been confused with a threat and eliminated. The post-Putin power vac is probably scarier than he is.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on May 9, 2023 18:57:42 GMT
There are five (maybe 6) things that scare the out of me at the moment:- 1. The War in Ukraine. 2. A potential (likely?) war between China and the US over Taiwan. 3. The global debt crisis. 4. Climate change. 5. The prospect of a US default (largely because of their dysfunctional politics). 6. (maybe AI). ... Addressing it is going to take a combination of:- a) decreased government spending / more efficient provision of government services (so we'll need to pay the NHS, police, armed forces, teachers, civil servants etc less - good luck with that!). b) increased taxation. c) growth (how? especially in Britain thanks to Brexit? NIMBYs want growth somewhere else...), a particularly acute problem because of demographics and resistance to immigration. d) inflate the debt away (making everybody poorer). e) Putin and Xi not being dickheads (good luck with that!). That all seems pretty much on-the-head. We're shafted, aren't we? c - growth. Ah, the fabled paper-unicorn of growth. Easy to hand-wave that one, of course (short-to-medium term, at least), if it's all built on sand and debt. e - Xi will have a sensible succession plan - while Putin's short-term, and his viable succession has mostly been confused with a threat and eliminated. The post-Putin power vac is probably scarier than he is. 7. (Liberal?) democracy being in retreat / being under sustained pressure in far too many countries.
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Post by bracknellboy on May 9, 2023 20:03:51 GMT
To my feeble mind that seems a recipe for eventual disaster? It is. There are five (maybe 6) things that scare the out of me at the moment:- 1. The War in Ukraine. 2. A potential (likely?) war between China and the US over Taiwan. 3. The global debt crisis. 4. Climate change. 5. The prospect of a US default (largely because of their dysfunctional politics). 6. (maybe AI). wrt to 3., whether it's acknowledged or not, it exists now. Most developed nation governments (the US, the UK, most of the EU, Japan etc) are in hock up to their eyeballs. If you exclude resource based economies much the same can be said of the developing world / emerging markets too (Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, Russia, much of Africa etc). China is a slightly special case, but things are so opaque there it's hard to tell just how much of a local government, SOE and property developer debt hole there is. The figures for 2021 are here. Those for 2023 are going to be worse. This was the case before COVID, before Brexit, and before Russia's invasion of Ukraine, all of which have exacerbated the problem (ofc Brexit being a singularly UK focused issue). Demographics combined with political cravenness are going to exacerbate the problem pretty much everywhere. It was also the case prior to many countries signing up to green their economies, which, whilst necessary, is going to be extremely expensive. Then add a hefty bill for increased defense spending globally. Addressing it is going to take a combination of:- a) decreased government spending / more efficient provision of government services (so we'll need to pay the NHS, police, armed forces, teachers, civil servants etc less - good luck with that!). b) increased taxation. c) growth (how? especially in Britain thanks to Brexit? NIMBYs want growth somewhere else...), a particularly acute problem because of demographics and resistance to immigration. d) inflate the debt away (making everybody poorer). e) Putin and Xi not being dickheads (good luck with that!). On an individual level I can't think of anything to do that's better than owning inflation resistant assets, namely property and equities. But property is over-valued and highly likely to see government tax raids, and equities are a) toppy anyway, b) subject to increased corporate taxation and c) bare more tail risk than at any other point in my lifetime. I'm not feeling particularly optimistic. It's going to be a very tough few decades. Sleep well. Take drugs if that is what is needed. Thank you for collating all my worldly concerns, in a single neat bullet pointed list. I may follow the suggestion of my second sentence.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on May 11, 2023 12:26:27 GMT
Yip I agree with the first 5.AI threat? Think terminator, if so we are doomed. More chance of humans making the usual arse of things resulting in armageddon.
I had a bottle of wine to myself last night. Cant say I slept well or feel to good today😬
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on May 19, 2023 8:30:00 GMT
To my feeble mind that seems a recipe for eventual disaster? It is. There are five (maybe 6) things that scare the out of me at the moment:- 1. The War in Ukraine. 2. A potential (likely?) war between China and the US over Taiwan. 3. The global debt crisis. 4. Climate change. 5. The prospect of a US default (largely because of their dysfunctional politics). 6. (maybe AI). I see the BBC have finally caught up - Could a US debt default unleash global chaos?
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