alender
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Post by alender on May 19, 2023 19:43:07 GMT
I am planning to relocate outside of the UK in about 2 years time and have been doing some initial research including first exploratory trip. The reasons for relocation are tax, public services, especially health service, crime and sunshine in that order. Also looking at returning to the UK from time to time so investigating the tax rules. I am over retirement age and will be living off my pension and investments
The places I have been considering are Gibraltar, Portugal, Andorra, Malta, Isle of Man and possibly the Cayman Islands.
At present Gibraltar is my preferred choice The pros are friendly atmosphere, great weather, no capital gains tax, no dividend tax, no tax on interest, pension taxed at 2.5% for QROPS pension, good health service which I can join when I transfer my UK state pension, 300 days a year of sunshine. The cons are very high house prices and the possibility that the tax status for self sufficient non residence is going to be changed so you will have to be classed as Cat2 with minimum tax of £37,000pa and no health care. This was meant to be brought in Jul 2022 but still nothing has happened, various views on what will happen and whether this will affect me so waiting to see what is decided (if anything).
Not found much detail on other places as waiting to see what happens in Gibraltar. However from what I have found
Portugal next on the list with low taxes for 10 years, cheap house prices.
Andorra 10% tax on everything above allowance, high house prices.
Isle of Man, low tax and should qualify for the health service.
Malta, low taxes but difficult to find out what the rules for taxing income from abroad.
Cayman Island, no tax, all healthcare must be covered by insurance but no sure how this works, i.e. are there caps on contributions, long way away.
Also considered luxembourg, Switzerland and Monaco.
Jersey is out because you need a minimum of £10,000,000
Has anyone got any experience of this or advice?
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Post by wiseclerk on May 19, 2023 21:07:21 GMT
No advice, but ...
Are you just relocating or will you actually live there?
I mean I have been in Gibraltar, Andorra, Malta, Portugal, Monaco, Luxembourg & Switzerland. None of the other places.
I could not see myself living in Gibraltar; Monaco or Andorra. Malta also you would be rather confined in your movement unless you take the plane every time. So off this list probably Portugal?
If it is about tax, crime and sunshine what about Cyprus?
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alender
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Post by alender on May 20, 2023 8:18:48 GMT
No advice, but ...
Are you just relocating or will you actually live there?
I mean I have been in Gibraltar, Andorra, Malta, Portugal, Monaco, Luxembourg & Switzerland. None of the other places.
I could not see myself living in Gibraltar; Monaco or Andorra. Malta also you would be rather confined in your movement unless you take the plane every time. So off this list probably Portugal?
If it is about tax, crime and sunshine what about Cyprus?
I am planning to live there for most of the year so become a resident for tax, will return to the UK a few times a year but will stay under the days required to pay tax (max 30 to 180 days depending on how many ties left), as my partner is Polish considering a small apartment in Poland in Krakow (cheap beautiful city and nice to live) near her family to stay for a time each year but again under the days required to pay tax. Also intend to take a number of holidays in different parts of the world each year. May possible be able to even be in my new residence less than 180 days a year so may not even pay tax there but it starts to get complex as I believe I need a tax residence somewhere, however the older I get the less I am likely to travel. In short it will be a base, if in sunny area will travel less but if say the Isle of Man may consider an apartment somewhere sunny. Have not really looked into Cyprus yet but did come up on the radar, I assume you mean the Greek side, been there before and liked it. Main reason for relocation is tax, at present just below £50,000 threshold but I have a large personal pension and state pension which are deferred, when I take these all taxed at 40% level or the highest level in years to come or when I downsize my property. My personal pension is very close to the lifetime allowance (if reinstated as Labour have promised) so even more tax. Also still have money in some companies I own. If I close these down in the UK will lose up to 39.35% (already paid corporation tax on the profits) of the value in tax, intend to relocate, pay out company funds as dividends (hopefully free of tax) and them close them down. So main reason for relocation is tax in UK but healthcare and crime very important. Tax I think will just get worse once Labour come to power but with Spend it Like Sunak and High Tax Hunt and with most of the rest of the Conservatives very little hope. I took the decision after the Hunts autumn statement, either stay in the UK and pay most of the money I earned all my life in tax for substandard public services or leave. All I can see is tax, healthcare and crime getting steadily worse in the UK, all in all not a good prospect for me as I get older.
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ozboy
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Mine's a Large One! (Snigger, snigger .......)
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Post by ozboy on May 20, 2023 8:51:03 GMT
alender , I found this site very helpful with loads of relevant information when I was investigating, they do all the legwork for you .... https:// internationalliving.com/about-il/ I haven't been on their email list for years, but at the time Panama was the clear favourite for retirement, all things considered.
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad on May 20, 2023 12:23:50 GMT
alender , I found this site very helpful with loads of relevant information when I was investigating, they do all the legwork for you .... https:// internationalliving.com/about-il/ I haven't been on their email list for years, but at the time Panama was the clear favourite for retirement, all things considered. Their current Top 5 is Portugal, Mexico, Panama, Ecuador, Costa Rica. For detail on tax matters, this site is invaluable - WPR
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james100
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Post by james100 on May 20, 2023 14:08:58 GMT
Expatistan.com will give you ideas on relative cost of living differences...which for a couple of your initial location may well wipe out any favourable tax regime Kpmg and pwc both have good expat tax information Panama - pensionados visa is interesting but also friendly nations visa (uk and poland both eligible) but it's a long way away and a bit sweaty. Avoiding habitual residency rules in UK is not the only tax issue for expats. 5 year cgt exemption, dual tax agreements and inheritance tax may be of interest too I would add Greece to your research list, and also possibly the Malaysia MM2H visaguide.world/retirement-visa/malaysia/ ....maybe even Belize. Just my humble opinion (as a serial expat who's interested in retiring in Portugal) - really do your maths on the whole package and don't be too driven by any single element (including tax!).
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alender
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Post by alender on May 20, 2023 14:51:45 GMT
Expatistan.com will give you ideas on relative cost of living differences...which for a couple of your initial location may well wipe out any favourable tax regime Kpmg and pwc both have good expat tax information Panama - pensionados visa is interesting but also friendly nations visa (uk and poland both eligible) but it's a long way away and a bit sweaty. Avoiding habitual residency rules in UK is not the only tax issue for expats. 5 year cgt exemption, dual tax agreements and inheritance tax may be of interest too I would add Greece to your research list, and also possibly the Malaysia MM2H visaguide.world/retirement-visa/malaysia/ ....maybe even Belize. Just my humble opinion (as a serial expat who's interested in retiring in Portugal) - really do your maths on the whole package and don't be too driven by any single element (including tax!). Thanks for the info, although tax is a major factor especially as I intent to spend a lot of time away it is not the only one, cost of living is part of the mix but not so important as will be away a lot. I like Greece so will do some research. Portugal non habitual resident status looks good along with the weather, low crime, cheap cost of living and houses, not looked into healthcare yet, I understand it is good but don't know if I need to pay for it all by insurance which will become more and more important as I get older. At present not looking to go too far as will want to get back to UK and Poland on a regular basis. Gibraltar is currently at the top of the list and although is not that expensive for most things but the price of property is very high also I said a potential new tax change may make rule this out but I may have away round this as partner works in care and social work it likely she can get a job at the hospital which then would exempt us both from the new tax law but then we will be limited on holidays as she needs to see her son in the UK and parents in Poland so not much left to travel the world however better than staying in the UK.
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Post by wiseclerk on May 20, 2023 15:28:39 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on May 20, 2023 19:13:52 GMT
Why not go and live in Dubai? Leaving aside that it's populated with the worlds most superficial and feckless people, it is a very low tax environment. What I would advise, you only live once and you can't take it with you. So stop trying to skim a bit extra off your tax bill and choose somewhere you'd most enjoy your life.
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Post by martin44 on May 20, 2023 21:46:02 GMT
I had to spend 2 months in andorra some years ago... it was lovely for the first 2 weeks.... then.. for the next 6 weeks.... my god its boring, even the ski slopes are rubbish.
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Post by wiseclerk on May 21, 2023 8:05:03 GMT
Why not go and live in Dubai? Because it is HOT
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alender
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Post by alender on May 21, 2023 9:30:15 GMT
Why not go and live in Dubai? Leaving aside that it's populated with the worlds most superficial and feckless people, it is a very low tax environment. What I would advise, you only live once and you can't take it with you. So stop trying to skim a bit extra off your tax bill and choose somewhere you'd most enjoy your life. Dubai in not and very unlikely to be on my list. The places I am considering are not only save me tax but give me a much better quality of life. It is not about skimming a bit off my tax, it about not being taxed to oblivion for very poor services especially healthcare at a time in life when I would need it most, increasing crime, crowded roads, trains that don't work and generally treated as a second class citizen in my own country. Also there is the hope side or lack of it in the UK, everyone I speak to has more or less given up and like myself is just resigned to the fact it will get worse especially when Labour come to power. And yes tax is important, I have paid far more tax in my life that I have ever got back and now I want enough money to pay for healthcare if needed than just wait in a queue for months to years to get nothing. Twice in the last year I had to go to A&E, once for myself for a problem that my GP should have dealt with but would not see me for many weeks and was advised to go to A&E and once for my partner. Both times spent over 8 hours just waiting in pain. In Gibraltar a sign up at the Hospital "The maximum wait time for A&E is 1 hour 25 minutes, we would hope to see you much quicker, the average wait time is 20 minutes but you must be prepared to wait up the maximum time". After some blood tests I was told that I urgently need a test for cancer, the rules for this test in the NHS is that should be done within 2 weeks, it took 2 weeks to get the appointment and then over 2 weeks before the test, fortunately negative. Had I know how long I would have to wait I would have gone private but was told by a doctor (over the phone of course) this test should be done within 2 weeks and I would soon be getting an appointment. Most western countries do this same day or next day. I had to have a wisdom tooth removed as I was in lot of pain, my private dentist (who is very good) tried but said it would need to be taken out at a hospital so he put in an urgent recommendation to the NHS, all they did was ask for an Xray which I had to pay for and put me on a waiting list. Just by luck I had a meeting with a dental specialist at Barts for something else (took over a year and a half to get that and over a £1000 of private bills) and mentioned about the tooth, he said he would see what he could do and in less than 2 months and 2 appointments latter it was taken out, waited about a year but without his help would probably be years if at all. Was considering going to Poland to have it removed privately in a hospital which would have been my best choice if it got worse but I got lucky. I could go on (I guess I have already have) but we all have these type of experiences. Also the tax savings mean I can have a nice retirement with some good holidays, pay for people to fix my car, house etc, which at present I do myself. I have worked hard all my life never been paid any benefit, paid for a lot my own healthcare so I do not think I am skimming the taxman.
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Post by captainconfident on May 21, 2023 10:03:33 GMT
Thanks for that considered answer alender. It is a danger to society when tax payers conclude they are not getting value for money. I have lived in two countries, NL and Belgium, and I see a stark difference in the mentality of the people based on this distinction. In NL, you can really see what you paid for in all the respects you mention. The infrastructure is all renewed, repaired. Modern trains pull up noiselessly and on time, with double decks leaving loads of space and transport is integrated door to door. Social and medical services are excellent. In Belgium, taxes are even higher, but all the above is more threadbare. You know you've crossed the border from NL at the moment you think 'is there something wrong with my car?' No, it's just the road surface is full of ruts. All the tax goes on financing free cars for all the superfluous layers of government which stifle this small country. This leads to the following situation: In NL, it is socially unacceptable to cheat on your taxes. Value for your money is all around you. Whereas in Belgium, cheating on everything is the default mode. My neighbour laughed at me when I said I just calculated the tax and paid it. No no no! You must do the small lie and the big lie. The small one that the tax service can pick up on and wag a finger at you, which distracts them from seeing the big lie! And this shapes a mentality of fighting against the layers of government at every level. Every man becomes an island, fighting for stuff for their family alone. Whereas the efficiency of Dutch society has lead to a spirit of social responsibility. Britain has gone the Belgian route, not by over governing the country but rather the opposite, by vesting spending decisions in single ministers in Whitehall who dole out inefficiently to the NHS and local government etc. Anyway the point is, a well governed country shows clear benefits from the spending of the peoples taxes, which satisfies the taxpayer and leads to social harmony.
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alender
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Post by alender on May 21, 2023 13:39:59 GMT
Thanks for that considered answer alender . It is a danger to society when tax payers conclude they are not getting value for money. I have lived in two countries, NL and Belgium, and I see a stark difference in the mentality of the people based on this distinction. In NL, you can really see what you paid for in all the respects you mention. The infrastructure is all renewed, repaired. Modern trains pull up noiselessly and on time, with double decks leaving loads of space and transport is integrated door to door. Social and medical services are excellent. In Belgium, taxes are even higher, but all the above is more threadbare. You know you've crossed the border from NL at the moment you think 'is there something wrong with my car?' No, it's just the road surface is full of ruts. All the tax goes on financing free cars for all the superfluous layers of government which stifle this small country. This leads to the following situation: In NL, it is socially unacceptable to cheat on your taxes. Value for your money is all around you. Whereas in Belgium, cheating on everything is the default mode. My neighbour laughed at me when I said I just calculated the tax and paid it. No no no! You must do the small lie and the big lie. The small one that the tax service can pick up on and wag a finger at you, which distracts them from seeing the big lie! And this shapes a mentality of fighting against the layers of government at every level. Every man becomes an island, fighting for stuff for their family alone. Whereas the efficiency of Dutch society has lead to a spirit of social responsibility. Britain has gone the Belgian route, not by over governing the country but rather the opposite, by vesting spending decisions in single ministers in Whitehall who dole out inefficiently to the NHS and local government etc. Anyway the point is, a well governed country shows clear benefits from the spending of the peoples taxes, which satisfies the taxpayer and leads to social harmony. Thank you for your also consider reply, although this thread is for me and hopefully some others to gain useful info on relocation the reasons for this will undoubtedly come up so I am adding in more of my two penneth/soap box. I was planning to stay in the UK for the rest of my life, I love this country, family been here for generations, even knowing I would be paying high taxes but the autumn statement was the last straw, CGT allowance cut from £12,300 pa to £3,000, dividend taxes increased 17%, all dividends not taxed (at basic rate) then taxed above £5000 and now reduce to £1,000, no inflation linking of other income tax bands and other things. The dividend tax is in fact a double tax and you have already paid corporation tax, in the old days before Gordon Brown there was ACT ensuring you only paid tax once (for basic rate tax payers and not at all for non tax payers). I am also affected by the corporation tax increase of 31%. All in all it has just become too much especially knowing they won’t stop here, next may be wealth taxes. Although don’t have second property was planning on buying one in Gibraltar to establish an address (as advised) and rent it most of the year before I move into it, but as I would need to borrow the funds for this which I was told I could do but the removal of tax relief on mortgages also applies to properties aboard. This would mean I pay tax on income I don’t have as all rent taxed and even before tax rent would not cover the mortgage costs so in fact paying tax while making a loss and also this will take me into the 40% tax band. We were told that this was to help more properties come on the market for first time buyers in the UK, really, for me just another tax grab. These tax increases we are told to pay for Covid, I got nothing (and rightly so) except locked up and finances trashed. Add in I have a small (hobby) farm of 10 acres, I now can’t get anyone to work on it due to high social security payments, I am just one of many people in this area trying to find labour, friends with businesses are close to bankruptcy due to taxes, regulation and high cost/lack of workers. Jobs which used to be done by the council I am now told I must do, these include clearing right of way ditches etc. All I get from government is more taxes, work and ordered around so definitely more like Belgium than NL. Try and put a wood burning stove in an already established fireplace and you will see, regulations means cost of around £2000 without the stove and perhaps soon you will be forced to take it out. Get all my heating from wood so more to look forwarded to. With Spend it like Sunak, High tax hunt, Gove adding more regulations in the background and Keir Starmer knocking at the door of No 10 what hope is there. Sunak really gets to me, got rid of Boris and then found he cannot win if it goes to any type of election outside conservative MPs so manoeuvred his way into PM, who cares about rules and democracy. Then raises taxes, reneges on his promises and also take a look at what he has done for his family firm Infosys, first gives grants to bring over these workers, removes a lot of the opposition but tightening IR35 and then increases the number of visas for Indians all from an unelected leader. Where are the press on this? As you point out I would not mind high taxes if we get good healthcare and other public services but I have been a cash cow for the government for too long now with nothing to show for it except a falling standard of living and quality of life. I believe there are lot of people in the Uk like me and probably quite a few on this forum. IMO this will not end well for the UK so time to get out.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on May 22, 2023 20:55:31 GMT
I'm sure quote a few of us on here agree with the above post. Working hard and saving in the UK seems to be a mugs game. I'm not a 40% tax payer but earn an average wage. If I do a bit overtime and save a bit I could end up a 40% tax payer(scottish tax rates)which seems ridiculous . We dont live extravagantly, I run a 13 year old car, we holiday mostly in our motorhome so no expensive hols.we shop at aldi. Point I'm making is we are getting taxed more and more, my council tax is now £268 a month for reducing public services, poor roads and poor NHS.
I can understand why folk might want to consider moving somewhere else with better quality of life, safer and warmer.
Interesting thread which hopefully will share info that we may all benefit from .
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