ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Feb 3, 2024 11:25:00 GMT
11 March for the administrator’s proposals on ablrate isn’t it? appointment date 15 Jan Ueah, good point. I was thinking anniversary like other reports but it's a strict 8 weeks
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Feb 4, 2024 11:50:50 GMT
I suppose I thought that the assets we considered security had some value. All of us that lost a chunk did some DD to lead us to believe this, I imagine.
Ablerate being insolvent is expected, but the loan security should retain its value to some extent, and our contract is primarilly a loan, rather than with Abl. Considering F*******n, the land in scotland a battery etc would seem to have value
Winding up the company (abl) might be seen as different from winding up the loans which are a contract between us and the companies we invested in. The problem with Greenshill wasn't that the borrowers were bad but that high risk taking investors took loans from risk taking lenders (inclucing ourselves)
Not a lawyer, just considering that the landscape seems to have changed more than I personally expected In my experience, most legal processes tend to take the path of least resistance and maximum beaurocracy so I was wonderining how to be a dam in the path of the tide
Just looking for options / grasping at straws I guess
Username checks out optimist ! I will just pick you up on one line, if I may? "The problem with Greenshill wasn't that the borrowers were bad but that high risk taking investors took loans from risk taking lenders (inclucing ourselves)" I don't believe that accurately summarises what happened. Here are some (of many) reasons why. One of the borrowers is being investigated by the SFO ( www.sfo.gov.uk/2022/04/27/sfo-steps-up-investigation-into-gupta-businesses/ ) including its financing arrangements with Greensill Multiple borrowers are implicated alongside Greensill in allegations of insurance fraud ( www.ft.com/content/fb768585-acc0-4fce-929f-45e19b69e759 ) Greensill Bank is subject to a criminal complaint by it's regulator ( www.reuters.com/article/britain-greensill-germany-idUSL5N2L15QD/ ) If anyone wants to dig in on Greensill, Duncan Mavin wrote a good book about it "The Pyramid of Lies: The Prime Minister, the banker and the Billion-Pound Scandal" The username was from a few years ago.
When I read a couple of articles a year or so back, it sounded as though Greensill were mainly repackaging loans and selling dubious optimistic futures in convoluted ways, similar to housing in 2008, but I imagine that as they've been digging they've learned a bit more. Thanks for the references.
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grumpsimus
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Post by grumpsimus on Feb 4, 2024 12:28:30 GMT
FS admin fees might be 2.5% , but the Administrators are collecting an extra 25% on top of this. This arrangement was agreed by the court. The idea was that this should cover the Administrators costs in collecting the remaining loans and any surplus would be returned to lenders at the end of the administration. Lenders have already been advised that there is unlikely to be a surplus.
I know this because I am a FS lender and 25% is deducted from all funds returned.
Ive not seen any comms on a Court ruling regarding 25%, not has it been referenced in the statutory reports IIRC. The admin fee is 2.5%, above this they have agreed with the CC they can take 5% to cover realisations costs and retain a further sum to allow payments to made while the QT case is ongoing (7.5%?) Seems to be about 15% deducted in total plus third party costs which are variable. Are you getting mixed up with Lendy where there is a 25% retention agreed with the AG & signed off by the Court? (Some FS loans have a settlement fee as well) Ablrate proposals are due 15 Mar - 8 weeks after appt date I must apologise it is the Administrators of BLN (Formerly Thincats) who are collecting 25% of all funds returned to lenders, not FS. I was clearly having a bad day when I typed FS.
However, I think we all probably agree with the general point that Administrators take a very large proporton of any funds collected. Certainly, I have yet to see a single post expressing delight at the very modest fee of an Administrator.
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Post by Badly Drawn Stickman on Feb 4, 2024 13:31:00 GMT
Ive not seen any comms on a Court ruling regarding 25%, not has it been referenced in the statutory reports IIRC. The admin fee is 2.5%, above this they have agreed with the CC they can take 5% to cover realisations costs and retain a further sum to allow payments to made while the QT case is ongoing (7.5%?) Seems to be about 15% deducted in total plus third party costs which are variable. Are you getting mixed up with Lendy where there is a 25% retention agreed with the AG & signed off by the Court? (Some FS loans have a settlement fee as well) Ablrate proposals are due 15 Mar - 8 weeks after appt date I must apologise it is the Administrators of BLN (Formerly Thincats) who are collecting 25% of all funds returned to lenders, not FS. I was clearly having a bad day when I typed FS.
However, I think we all probably agree with the general point that Administrators take a very large proporton of any funds collected. Certainly, I have yet to see a single post expressing delight at the very modest fee of an Administrator.
Just so that one does exist (sort of) I think the Ablrate Administration fees I have incurred to date 04/02.2024 are exactly what I am happy paying. That David Bradley-Ward failed businessman, has abandoned his responsibility will probably change that position. How big a part the very real likelihood of many FOS complaints being upheld played in David Bradley-Ward failed businessman's actions will I suspect forever be a mystery.
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Feb 4, 2024 14:45:24 GMT
I suppose I thought that the assets we considered security had some value. All of us that lost a chunk did some DD to lead us to believe this, I imagine.
Ablerate being insolvent is expected, but the loan security should retain its value to some extent, and our contract is primarilly a loan, rather than with Abl. Considering F*******n, the land in scotland a battery etc would seem to have value
Winding up the company (abl) might be seen as different from winding up the loans which are a contract between us and the companies we invested in. The problem with Greenshill wasn't that the borrowers were bad but that high risk taking investors took loans from risk taking lenders (inclucing ourselves)
Not a lawyer, just considering that the landscape seems to have changed more than I personally expected In my experience, most legal processes tend to take the path of least resistance and maximum beaurocracy so I was wonderining how to be a dam in the path of the tide
Just looking for options / grasping at straws I guess
Optimist
The loans and Ablrate are two different issues and you should not conflated them together.
We will get a much better idea of the indebtedness of Ablrate when the Administrators produce their report and the Statement of Affairs, which should by the end of this month.
It can also be expected that the Administrators will indicate how much extra money they want to try collect the monies owing from the outstanding loans. In the case of Funding Secure the Administrators take 25% of all monies recovered. At the end of the Administration any surplus is meant to be returned to lenders, but this is unlikely to happen.
With regard to the 'security' of the loans. Remember in many cases misleading information, sometimes lies were given. I suggest that you look through your outstanding loans and at the comments about them of this forum and try to estimate how much if anything is likely to be returned.
Observer has dealt with Greensil Capital, which is a horrible can of worms, affecting the AF loans.
Yes, the challenges for Abl and loans are different but the way that the Administration is conducted seems related and inefficient, which would eat into any returns.
The loans and two sets of admin are linked financially and as far as how they are resolved due to the Administrators taking money from the loans to pay their expenses dealing with each other.
Most of my money is in AF loans and there seem to be so many unknowns there that i find it difficult to come to a good conclusion as to current value. I think I've read most of the threads, with repeated face-palming, probably need to go back and re-read some of it.
I'm just wondering out loud whether there anything we can do to improve our chances of returns.
My assumption was that the running costs of Abl should be relatively low, so I'm guessing as to what significant liabilities have been racked up, that take such a high % of the remaining assets to resolve.
The value seemed to be in the millions but the estimated return of 15% by the administrators on the AF loans was lower than I and I assume other investors originally expected. Not sure how much of the problem is Abl, AF or admin when it comes to that low figure.
Of course the tangle of shares and companies shuffling assets around will be time consuming to unravel.
Maybe as the Abl admin are partly working for us, they can do something to help ensure that the AF Admin is conducted efficiently and improve on the returns.
Still grasping at straws I know.
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p2pfan
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Full-Time Investor
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Post by p2pfan on Feb 4, 2024 15:12:55 GMT
"Maybe as the Abl admin are partly working for us, they can do something to help ensure that the AF Admin is conducted efficiently and improve on the returns." Optimistic by name and optimistic by nature  The administrators for neither Ablrate nor any other company are working in the interests of the creditors. They work for private businesses. Their current salaries and bonuses, and future salary increases, are dependent on how much profit they can rake in for these private companies. Therefore, their exclusive raison d'etre is to milk as much money as possible from each administration process for themselves. In nearly thirty years of suffering administrations of businesses that have owed me money, I have yet to come across one single administrator that took the slightest interest in keeping their fees 'reasonable'. Ablrate will be no different. Tragically. |
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optimist
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Post by optimist on Feb 4, 2024 18:10:33 GMT
"Maybe as the Abl admin are partly working for us, they can do something to help ensure that the AF Admin is conducted efficiently and improve on the returns." Optimistic by name and optimistic by nature The administrators for neither Ablrate nor any other company are working in the interests of the creditors. They work for private businesses. Their current salaries and bonuses, and future salary increases, are dependent on how much profit they can rake in for these private companies. Therefore, their exclusive raison d'etre is to milk as much money as possible from each administration process for themselves. In nearly thirty years of suffering administrations of businesses that have owed me money, I have yet to come across one single administrator that took the slightest interest in keeping their fees 'reasonable'. Ablrate will be no different. Tragically. I know my Optimism and the trouble it gets me in. I've dodged bullets and attributed luck to skill, but having just filled in my tax returns, this one hit.
A self serving administrator that gets another admin to stump up more cash, could work in our favour, if we can provide info that helps them. I was looking for an angle, sometimes there is one.
Administration isn't a game i've played. Are we out of options and just spectating?
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grumpsimus
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Post by grumpsimus on Mar 8, 2024 18:28:32 GMT
Quantuma are leaving their report a bit late, monday is the last day. I have a feeling that having looked at the loanbook and seen the quality of the outstanding loans, they have come to the conclusion they are unlikely get enough money to pay their fees and wil hand this one to the official receiver.
AFAIK the only source of income for Ablrate is from the repayment of loan interest. Judging from my own modest number of outstanding loans I think it highly unlikely that I will get much in the way of capital back let alone interest. I suspect that Quantuma will want a percentage of the capital returned, but is it likely to be enough to cover their fees?
Does anyone have any outstanding loans where they expect a substantial repayment of capital?
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Post by Ace on Mar 8, 2024 18:49:15 GMT
Quantuma are leaving their report a bit late, monday is the last day. I have a feeling that having looked at the loanbook and seen the quality of the outstanding loans, they have come to the conclusion they are unlikely get enough money to pay their fees and wil hand this one to the official receiver.
AFAIK the only source of income for Ablrate is from the repayment of loan interest. Judging from my own modest number of outstanding loans I think it highly unlikely that I will get much in the way of capital back let alone interest. I suspect that Quantuma will want a percentage of the capital returned, but is it likely to be enough to cover their fees?
Does anyone have any outstanding loans where they expect a substantial repayment of capital? Yes, I expect the final PeaOne loan, that's due to repay at the end of this month (£693,500), to repay in full. How much of that will be retained to pay admin fees, I've no idea.
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Post by overthehill on Mar 8, 2024 19:03:34 GMT
I sold everything when lenders got stitched up by Ablrate and AF. The schedule and timescale of events was damning and immoral - new loan, few days later oh dear shock news about greensill, all AF loans suspended, goodnight vienna or should that be good morning dubai.
After all the meddling behind closed doors and opaque updates I'm expecting somewhere between 0% and 20% of my capital back and no interest.
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grumpsimus
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Post by grumpsimus on Mar 9, 2024 11:47:47 GMT
Quantuma are leaving their report a bit late, monday is the last day. I have a feeling that having looked at the loanbook and seen the quality of the outstanding loans, they have come to the conclusion they are unlikely get enough money to pay their fees and wil hand this one to the official receiver.
AFAIK the only source of income for Ablrate is from the repayment of loan interest. Judging from my own modest number of outstanding loans I think it highly unlikely that I will get much in the way of capital back let alone interest. I suspect that Quantuma will want a percentage of the capital returned, but is it likely to be enough to cover their fees?
Does anyone have any outstanding loans where they expect a substantial repayment of capital? Yes, I expect the final PeaOne loan, that's due to repay at the end of this month (£693,500), to repay in full. How much of that will be retained to pay admin fees, I've no idea. Well I am pleased that at least someone is expecting a payment. However, this repayment won't make much of dent on the outstanding loan book which is in the region of £16/18 million.
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