angrysaveruk
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Back and to the left..
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Trump
Jun 2, 2024 16:57:30 GMT
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 2, 2024 16:57:30 GMT
If Donald Trump (or anyone else who is not part of the above the law deep state elite) had been accused of a fraction of what Bill Clinton has been accused of by a large number of people he very likely would be behind bars for decades. If you look at the extent of the allegations against Bill Clinton it is actually staggering, see if you can find the interview with the Arkansas police chief . The fact the only thing they could get him on was some questionable accounting suggests to me he is pretty clean.Umm you seem to have a misunderstanding of the judicial system. Or are employing selective memory. That trial was on a specific thing. It wasn't a 'catch all' trial and "that was the best they could do." He faces a number of other criminal trials. Of course if he wins the election, some of those can be made to go away by virtue of the fact they are federal cases and he will order the DoJ to drop them. But if he doesn't, they are still to come. Oh, and he was of course also found guilty of sexual abuse and rape, and defamation, in the E Jean Carroll case, which was of course a civil case. I am not going to keep going in circles about this, my perspective is very simple the motivation for trying Trump on a minor accounting issue when the whole US political system is a corrupt cesspool during an election is politically motivated in my opinion. I cant comment on people who have sued Trump.
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michaelc
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Trump
Jun 2, 2024 17:47:34 GMT
Post by michaelc on Jun 2, 2024 17:47:34 GMT
You do like your adversarial tone don't you? Mr Saver put his points across in a perfectly pleasant way. I don't know how many times I've had to suggest you play the ball not the man. Definition of adversarial tone?
Anyone who says something you disagree with? Yeah that's right - anyone that I disagree with.....
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 2, 2024 18:55:05 GMT
Umm you seem to have a misunderstanding of the judicial system. Or are employing selective memory. That trial was on a specific thing. It wasn't a 'catch all' trial and "that was the best they could do." He faces a number of other criminal trials. Of course if he wins the election, some of those can be made to go away by virtue of the fact they are federal cases and he will order the DoJ to drop them. But if he doesn't, they are still to come. Oh, and he was of course also found guilty of sexual abuse and rape, and defamation, in the E Jean Carroll case, which was of course a civil case. You do like your adversarial tone don't you? Mr Saver put his points across in a perfectly pleasant way. I don't know how many times I've had to suggest you play the ball not the man. This is the picture I have in my mind when I read most of Bracknels posts*: * - this is an exaggeration since I do not believe he is under 5ft2
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Trump
Jun 2, 2024 20:06:21 GMT
Ace likes this
Post by bracknellboy on Jun 2, 2024 20:06:21 GMT
Umm you seem to have a misunderstanding of the judicial system. Or are employing selective memory. That trial was on a specific thing. It wasn't a 'catch all' trial and "that was the best they could do." He faces a number of other criminal trials. Of course if he wins the election, some of those can be made to go away by virtue of the fact they are federal cases and he will order the DoJ to drop them. But if he doesn't, they are still to come. Oh, and he was of course also found guilty of sexual abuse and rape, and defamation, in the E Jean Carroll case, which was of course a civil case. You do like your adversarial tone don't you? Mr Saver put his points across in a perfectly pleasant way. I don't know how many times I've had to suggest you play the ball not the man. Hardly adversarial. However, since we are in this case talking about the Common Law system, "adversarial" would in fact be entirely appropriate. Since that is how it is defined. But no, the OP has made a very broad brush comparison and statement: namely that because ONE of the charges which Trump faces is (in their opinion) a minor accounting offence, that is "the best" "they" can do, and therefore he is near as clean as a polished button. The OP - unless they are particularly stupid, and they claim not to be - knows full well that there are a bunch of other charges Trump is currently charged with. And is also fully aware of the civil defamation and sex offences case in which he has been found guilty. Which of course was the direct 'clean as a button' comparison he was trying to make. So their statement is made in full knowledge of that. QED it is a typical piece of deliberate obfuscation, not accidental oversight due to a lack of knowledge. It therefore deserves and should be called out as such. Not treated as if they have just happened to be ignorant of it. In the latter instance, a bit of polite helpful education is most definitely in order. In the former, it should be treated for exactly what it is.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 2, 2024 20:21:25 GMT
Umm you seem to have a misunderstanding of the judicial system. Or are employing selective memory. That trial was on a specific thing. It wasn't a 'catch all' trial and "that was the best they could do." He faces a number of other criminal trials. Of course if he wins the election, some of those can be made to go away by virtue of the fact they are federal cases and he will order the DoJ to drop them. But if he doesn't, they are still to come. Oh, and he was of course also found guilty of sexual abuse and rape, and defamation, in the E Jean Carroll case, which was of course a civil case. I am not going to keep going in circles about this, my perspective is very simple the motivation for trying Trump on a minor accounting issue when the whole US political system is a corrupt cesspool during an election is politically motivated in my opinion. I cant comment on people who have sued Trump. Of course "minor accounting issue" is your choice of words. Under the relevant US law, it is so minor that it carries a maximum sentence of 4 years in jail. On each charge. Up to a maximum of 20 years. And lets not overlook that the actual charge was one of falsifying business accounts in order to cover up another crime. This is not some inadvertent book keeping error. That is the charge that was ratified by a Grand Jury, and that he was found guilty of by the jury that considered the case. Those are the facts. The presentation of it as a "minor accounting issue" is just personal opinion. And not one that is supported by the actual offence charged and the penalty available for it.
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Post by overthehill on Jun 2, 2024 21:18:32 GMT
The only reason we're seeing Trump's court cases for his minor (not my description) criminal offences first is because pocket judges (Eileen 'loose' Cannon) and the corrupt supreme court majority (all appointed by Trump) have done everything humanly possible to stall the serious and worst criminal cases in the hope immunity might save him.
He's going down as the biggest criminal and traitor in US history.
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adrianc
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 6:10:54 GMT
Post by adrianc on Jun 3, 2024 6:10:54 GMT
If he'd been accused of serious crime and there was an obvious case against him that would be a different matter. This is clearly something small dragged up by the party that opposes him in exactly the same fashion as some of those regimes. This is, let's remind you, simply the first of the criminal trials to come to court. There's four others behind it. apnews.com/projects/trump-investigations-civil-criminal-tracker/...and then there's the E. Jean Carroll sexual assault/rape and follow-on defamation cases, which he's already been found civilly liable for.
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 3, 2024 6:37:48 GMT
I am not going to keep going in circles about this, my perspective is very simple the motivation for trying Trump on a minor accounting issue when the whole US political system is a corrupt cesspool during an election is politically motivated in my opinion. I cant comment on people who have sued Trump. Of course "minor accounting issue" is your choice of words. Under the relevant US law, it is so minor that it carries a maximum sentence of 4 years in jail. On each charge. Up to a maximum of 20 years. And lets not overlook that the actual charge was one of falsifying business accounts in order to cover up another crime. This is not some inadvertent book keeping error. That is the charge that was ratified by a Grand Jury, and that he was found guilty of by the jury that considered the case. Those are the facts. The presentation of it as a "minor accounting issue" is just personal opinion. And not one that is supported by the actual offence charged and the penalty available for it. You are missing my central point which for the 20th time is this "The reason for this court case against Trump during an election in which he is the favourite candidate is an attempt by the current administration and the US deep state to stop Trump winning. It has nothing to do with whether or not Trump has broken the law - most of the political elite in the US are above the law and totally corrupt.". I think what a lot of our disagreements (whether that is about P2P, the EU, Ukraine, Trump) come down to the fact that you essentially trust the authorities and ruling powers and I do not.
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adrianc
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 7:21:28 GMT
Post by adrianc on Jun 3, 2024 7:21:28 GMT
Of course "minor accounting issue" is your choice of words. Under the relevant US law, it is so minor that it carries a maximum sentence of 4 years in jail. On each charge. Up to a maximum of 20 years. And lets not overlook that the actual charge was one of falsifying business accounts in order to cover up another crime. This is not some inadvertent book keeping error. That is the charge that was ratified by a Grand Jury, and that he was found guilty of by the jury that considered the case. Those are the facts. The presentation of it as a "minor accounting issue" is just personal opinion. And not one that is supported by the actual offence charged and the penalty available for it. You are missing my central point which for the 20th time is this "The reason for this court case against Trump during an election in which he is the favourite candidate is an attempt by the current administration and the US deep state to stop Trump winning. It has nothing to do with whether or not Trump has broken the law - most of the political elite in the US are above the law and totally corrupt.". I think what a lot of our disagreements (whether that is about P2P, the EU, Ukraine, Trump) come down to the fact that you essentially trust the authorities and ruling powers and I do not. The reason this court case is "during an election" is simple... It's taken over a year from indictiment to the conclusion of the trial. He was indicted in March 2023, following January 2023 initial charges. www.reuters.com/legal/government/trumps-alleged-hush-money-payments-path-criminal-charges-2023-04-04/Don't forget Cohen pled guilty in August 2018 to his own part in the saga. www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1L61P5/And Trump admitted his part in May 2018... www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IH2J4/...after lying about it a month earlier... www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1I405I/
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angrysaveruk
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Back and to the left..
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 7:55:47 GMT
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 3, 2024 7:55:47 GMT
You are missing my central point which for the 20th time is this "The reason for this court case against Trump during an election in which he is the favourite candidate is an attempt by the current administration and the US deep state to stop Trump winning. It has nothing to do with whether or not Trump has broken the law - most of the political elite in the US are above the law and totally corrupt.". I think what a lot of our disagreements (whether that is about P2P, the EU, Ukraine, Trump) come down to the fact that you essentially trust the authorities and ruling powers and I do not. The reason this court case is "during an election" is simple... It's taken over a year from indictiment to the conclusion of the trial. He was indicted in March 2023, following January 2023 initial charges. www.reuters.com/legal/government/trumps-alleged-hush-money-payments-path-criminal-charges-2023-04-04/Don't forget Cohen pled guilty in August 2018 to his own part in the saga. www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1L61P5/And Trump admitted his part in May 2018... www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IH2J4/...after lying about it a month earlier... www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1I405I/Good luck...
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 3, 2024 8:12:04 GMT
Good luck... Not quite sure what that image is meant to represent... You say you don't "essentially trust the ruling authorities and powers" - yet you are implicitly trusting a proven fraudster and liar, a serial bankrupt, a conman and grifter over them... Sometimes, it's simple. There's one common factor when it comes to DJT. When there's THAT much evidence and proof about somebody's character and actions going back decades, perhaps it's accurate? William of Ockham was right.
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registerme
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 8:40:15 GMT
Post by registerme on Jun 3, 2024 8:40:15 GMT
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registerme
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 9:55:43 GMT
Post by registerme on Jun 3, 2024 9:55:43 GMT
I thought this interview was interesting, calm and measured.
(Although the banner page is annoyingly dramatic / alarmist).
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jun 3, 2024 10:03:36 GMT
Thanks. I am aware of almost all these allegations and I thought they were common knowledge. My personal opinion is that both Clinton and Trump are probably guilty of the vast majority of sexual assault and misconduct allegations levied against them. There are good reasons why women would not chose to subject themselves to a court (or any official) process having seen the way previous victims have suffered be that through extended legal process or vilification/retraumatization by defense or general public. Not sure I understand the relevance to current case of falsification business records, though. If Donald Trump (or anyone else who is not part of the above the law deep state elite) had been accused of a fraction of what Bill Clinton has been accused of by a large number of people he very likely would be behind bars for decades. If you look at the extent of the allegations against Bill Clinton it is actually staggering, see if you can find the interview with the Arkansas police chief . The fact the only thing they could get him on was some questionable accounting suggests to me he is pretty clean.Anyone who knows history knows the only thing they ever pinned on Al Capone one of the worst gangsters in American history was tax evasion. he took a plea on tax evasion on 5000 other law breaches for 2.5 years . things that worry me with the Trump case :- despite what the Judge and prosecutors say multiple misdemeanours do not add up to felony - that's like saying 10 thefts of mars bars from corner shop is the same as robbing a bank The prosecutors have kept banging on about illegal acts without specifying what laws he broke, I think the defence didn't bring this up as they will use it in the appeal to have all the charges dismissed.
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adrianc
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Trump
Jun 3, 2024 11:19:16 GMT
Post by adrianc on Jun 3, 2024 11:19:16 GMT
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