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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 24, 2024 17:53:34 GMT
No, it most definitely is skewed to the wealthy, and indeed the very wealthy. But as that wasn't a point your comment was actually making, it wasn't something I was challenging. However, FWIW, Joe Biden is thought to have net assets of around $10m (as far as I can tell). That is really not in the "very wealthy" category, certainly by US standards. And the bulk of that is via value in two homes. And Harris's and her husbands net worth is around $8m, and a lot of that has come from his work as a lawyer in the entertainment industry. Keir Starmer's net worth might be somewhere around £10-15m (or a bit less), which if adjusted for relative UK-US wealth is even higher in relative terms. I think we all know that Rishi Sunak is so poor that his parents couldn't afford Sky television. So while over here we all think that US politics is horribly skewed by money, actual wealth of some of those even at the top is not exactly eye popping. I doubt you'll find many car mechanics or hairdressers in either country that can announce on on a Tuesday that they are running for Prime Minister/President and then rake in £50m overnight. Kind of not how it works. So you are making that argument or are you just arguing for the sake of it ? I suspect the latter which is good as otherwise it would be boring around here. You picked Sunak as your example who you well know is probably from the richest family the UK has ever had. What about Gordon Brown and Theresa May - the latter was 2M during office presumably most of it due to her house in Maidenhead. But why are we arguing about whether it would be easier for a poorer person in the UK to become PM than his equivalent in the US to make president? Why? See above.... Well actually I wasn't really arguing. The discussion piqued my interest in Biden and Harris, and I was a little surprised at their lack of significant wealth, given our common assumption about US politics. Strange as it may seem, I picked on Starmer and Sunak because they are the last two prime ministers. Which is rather relevant. Why are you picking on me picking on Sunak, but completely ignoring the fact that I started with Keir Starmer? Before touching on his predecessor. There isn't a sleight of hand around every corner. Keir Starmer after all was the son of a lowly tool maker, a fact I'm sure very few people are aware of....... So the Prime Minister before Rishi Sunak, was Liz Truss, if we can all remember that far back - a bit under 2 years is a hell of along time in politics, apparently, doubly so when the Tories are in power it has seemed recently. Liz Truss's net worth - according to an article back in Sept 2022 - was around £8.4m. This would have been before she started lining her pockets from speaking engagements arising from her extensive knowledge of running a country. I haven't cross checked that number with multiple other sources 'cos I'm not really interested in the detail, just the order. But it could certainly buy a lot of lettuces. Perhaps surprisingly, Boris Johnson's net worth at the time he stood down was estimated to only be about £1.7m. You might have assumed that the people's favourite toff, with all his extra curricular activities, might have been somewhat more loaded. But I guess its also quite likely that his net worth has been considerably diminished thanks to other forms of extra curricular activity: there's probably been quite a few payoffs and ongoing child maintenance payments along the way. So where does that take us ? Ah yes. Theresa May, now that I've counted 5 back. I can't really find any good indication of her net worth. Possibly considered a bit too boring. But one figure I've seen was that it was around £2m back then. The pauper of that little lot. The next in line is David Cameron. Currently estimated net worth £40m. No idea what it was at time of his elevation to the greatest office of state. But it was probably still a fair old amount. Sorry, not going back as far as Thatcher. The contemporaneous comparison to across the pond would have been with Jimmy Carter I guess. The former naval officer, and peanut farmer. The contrast between the two sides of the Atlantic may not be quite as stark as we think. The big difference of course is how much money actually gets raised and spent on elections. Being rich can clearly help, though as we've seen with Trump being rich doesn't preclude you from grifting for funds rather than bankrolling yourself.
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benaj
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Trump
Jul 24, 2024 18:03:12 GMT
Post by benaj on Jul 24, 2024 18:03:12 GMT
So you are making that argument or are you just arguing for the sake of it ? I suspect the latter which is good as otherwise it would be boring around here. You picked Sunak as your example who you well know is probably from the richest family the UK has ever had. What about Gordon Brown and Theresa May - the latter was 2M during office presumably most of it due to her house in Maidenhead. But why are we arguing about whether it would be easier for a poorer person in the UK to become PM than his equivalent in the US to make president? Why? See above.... Well actually I wasn't really arguing. The discussion piqued my interest in Biden and Harris, and I was a little surprised at their lack of significant wealth, given our common assumption about US politics. Strange as it may seem, I picked on Starmer and Sunak because they are the last two prime ministers. Which is rather relevant. Why are you picking on me picking on Sunak, but completely ignoring the fact that I started with Keir Starmer? Before touching on his predecessor. There isn't a sleight of hand around every corner. Keir Starmer after all was the son of a lowly tool maker, a fact I'm sure very few people are aware of....... So the Prime Minister before Rishi Sunak, was Liz Truss, if we can all remember that far back - a bit under 2 years is a hell of along time in politics, apparently, doubly so when the Tories are in power it has seemed recently. Liz Truss's net worth - according to an article back in Sept 2022 - was around £8.4m. This would have been before she started lining her pockets from speaking engagements arising from her extensive knowledge of running a country. I haven't cross checked that number with multiple other sources 'cos I'm not really interested in the detail, just the order. But it could certainly buy a lot of lettuces. Perhaps surprisingly, Boris Johnson's net worth at the time he stood down was estimated to only be about £1.7m. You might have assumed that the people's favourite toff, with all his extra curricular activities, might have been somewhat more loaded. But I guess its also quite likely that his net worth has been considerably diminished thanks to other forms of extra curricular activity: there's probably been quite a few payoffs and ongoing child maintenance payments along the way. So where does that take us ? Ah yes. Theresa May, now that I've counted 5 back. I can't really find any good indication of her net worth. Possibly considered a bit too boring. But one figure I've seen was that it was around £2m back then. The pauper of that little lot. The next in line is David Cameron. Currently estimated net worth £40m. No idea what it was at time of his elevation to the greatest office of state. But it was probably still a fair old amount. Sorry, not going back as far as Thatcher. The contemporaneous comparison to across the pond would have been with Jimmy Carter I guess. The former naval officer, and peanut farmer. The contrast between the two sides of the Atlantic may not be quite as stark as we think. The big difference of course is how much money actually gets raised and spent on elections. Being rich can clearly help, though as we've seen with Trump being rich doesn't preclude you from grifting for funds rather than bankrolling yourself. Interesting. What about the net gain after being PM?
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Trump
Jul 24, 2024 20:18:20 GMT
Post by bracknellboy on Jul 24, 2024 20:18:20 GMT
Well actually I wasn't really arguing. The discussion piqued my interest in Biden and Harris, and I was a little surprised at their lack of significant wealth, given our common assumption about US politics. ..... Interesting. What about the net gain after being PM?That sir I leave as an exercise for the reader. Albeit the short answer is that I would expect the net gain to be quite a bit. Except for Sunak, in relative terms. I think Cameron has been particularly profitable in the post-PM acquisition of lucre. And I don't think that has all come from his "My Cogitations from a Shepherd's Hut" days. Truss I guess hasn't had too much time to coin it in, but she definitely is having a good go at it by tarting herself around the US Conservative speaker circuit. One suspects that interest in her will wane fairly quickly. If you go back to Blair, I suspect the numbers would be very interesting.
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benaj
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Trump
Jul 27, 2024 17:01:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by benaj on Jul 27, 2024 17:01:38 GMT
“In four years, you don't have to vote again, we'll have it fixed so good you're not going to have to vote,"
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Post by overthehill on Jul 27, 2024 18:25:50 GMT
Don't follow this story if you routinely buy second hand sofas.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jul 29, 2024 8:05:49 GMT
You picked Sunak as your example who you well know is probably from the richest family the UK has ever had. Rishi Sunak himself? No. Almost all of the wealth comes from his wife's father, via the small proportion of Infosys equity (<1%) in Mrs S's name. Rishi himself was hardly poor by his own efforts - a good few mill from his pre-politics city career, but not exactly stellar wealth for the finance sector. Even then, hardly "richest the UK has ever had". Sunak and his wife are estimated to be worth £650m or so. That's not even 10% of a family like the Westons or the Rausings, and about 2% of the Hindujas.
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Trump
Jul 30, 2024 23:18:21 GMT
Post by captainconfident on Jul 30, 2024 23:18:21 GMT
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alender
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Jul 31, 2024 7:50:02 GMT
Post by alender on Jul 31, 2024 7:50:02 GMT
You picked Sunak as your example who you well know is probably from the richest family the UK has ever had. Rishi Sunak himself? No. Almost all of the wealth comes from his wife's father, via the small proportion of Infosys equity (<1%) in Mrs S's name. Rishi himself was hardly poor by his own efforts - a good few mill from his pre-politics city career, but not exactly stellar wealth for the finance sector. Even then, hardly "richest the UK has ever had". Sunak and his wife are estimated to be worth £650m or so. That's not even 10% of a family like the Westons or the Rausings, and about 2% of the Hindujas. Rishi Sunak and his family are lot richer after his term as PM. He supported the vaccine while making a fortune from Moderna shares through a hedge fund where he was co-founder and kept this very quite. Infosys, his family company (once denied he had heard of Infosys on a Sky interview) gained a lot of large new government contacts while he has been PM. Gave grants to Indian IT people to come to the UK, made visa easier for Indian IT people as part of trade agreement all benefitting Infosys. Changed the IR35 rules to make it almost impossible to employ UK IT freelances clearing the path for more work for Infosys. Liz Truss changed these back but first thing he did as PM was revert to the rules he put in. All perhaps a coincidence but has made the Sunak family a lot richer.
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adrianc
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Jul 31, 2024 8:05:47 GMT
Post by adrianc on Jul 31, 2024 8:05:47 GMT
Rishi Sunak himself? No. Almost all of the wealth comes from his wife's father, via the small proportion of Infosys equity (<1%) in Mrs S's name. Rishi himself was hardly poor by his own efforts - a good few mill from his pre-politics city career, but not exactly stellar wealth for the finance sector. Even then, hardly "richest the UK has ever had". Sunak and his wife are estimated to be worth £650m or so. That's not even 10% of a family like the Westons or the Rausings, and about 2% of the Hindujas. Rishi Sunak and his family are lot richer after his term as PM. He supported the vaccine while making a fortune from Moderna shares through a hedge fund where he was co-founder and kept this very quite. Infosys, his family company (once denied he had heard of Infosys on a Sky interview) gained a lot of large new government contacts while he has been PM. Gave grants to Indian IT people to come to the UK, made visa easier for Indian IT people as part of trade agreement all benefitting Infosys. Changed the IR35 rules to make it almost impossible to employ UK IT freelances clearing the path for more work for Infosys. Liz Truss changed these back but first thing he did as PM was revert to the rules he put in. All perhaps a coincidence but has made the Sunak family a lot richer. Sunak appears to have forgotten to put his continued investment in Theleme into his register of interests, which would be a very serious matter indeed. members.parliament.uk/member/4483/registeredinterestsTheleme have denied any continued investment or involvement post his 2013 resignation, but there may be a blind trust involved. goodlawproject.org/government-ordered-to-disclose-sunaks-hedge-fund-emails/He didn't deny he'd heard of Infosys - he said he wasn't involved in it. Since his wife is only a <1% shareholder, that's no great surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60866778There is no trade agreement with India. Negotiations have been on-and-off for years, both EU-India and since Brexit UK-India. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/Truss talked about removing IR35, but didn't do it. www.contractorweekly.com/tax-a-ir35-news/former-pm-truss-calls-for-an-end-to-ir35/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35 - IR35 was introduced in the late 90s, and put a stop to massive urine-extraction amongst "disguised employee" IT contractors, many of whom had been in their roles for years and were paying virtually no tax. It was a very good thing. But, apart from that...
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alender
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Jul 31, 2024 23:04:53 GMT
Post by alender on Jul 31, 2024 23:04:53 GMT
"Sunak appears to have forgotten to put his continued investment in Theleme into his register of interests, which would be a very serious matter indeed. members.parliament.uk/member/4483/registeredinterestsTheleme have denied any continued investment or involvement post his 2013 resignation, but there may be a blind trust involved. goodlawproject.org/government-ordered-to-disclose-sunaks-hedge-fund-emails/" Information has come out he is still has a holding in the blind trust which he should know owned Moderna shares (bought when he was running it) but kept this quiet all though covid while supporting the UK government buying huge amounts of vaccines, this should have been disclosed. See www.businesstoday.in/latest/world/story/did-rishi-sunak-benefit-from-covid-vaccine-maker-modernas-stock-rise-heres-what-the-uk-pm-has-to-say-370386-2023-02-15He will not answer YES or NO, that tells you everything. "There is no trade agreement with India. Negotiations have been on-and-off for years, both EU-India and since Brexit UK-India. commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9314/" But it is part of the negotiations which Rishi was very happy with. When he was Chancellor he pushed though the "India Young Professionals Scheme visa" see www.gov.uk/india-young-professionals-scheme-visaAlso "India receives largest share of UK study, work, and visit visas" www.gov.uk/government/news/india-receives-largest-share-of-uk-study-work-and-visit-visasand Number of work visas granted in the United Kingdom has increased substantial and in 2023/24 is almost double any other country www.statista.com/statistics/293230/work-related-visas-issued-in-the-uk-by-nationality/#:~:text=Number%20of%20work%20visas%20granted%20in%20the%20UK%202024%2C%20by%20nationality&text=In%20the%20year%20ending%20March,nationality%20for%20visas%20being%20granted. All on his watch as chancellor or PM. "He didn't deny he'd heard of Infosys - he said he wasn't involved in it. Since his wife is only a <1% shareholder, that's no great surprise. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60866778" I saw the sky interview when he was in an industrial plant and at the end they asked him about Infosys, he was taken off guard, stumbled around and then said he has never heard of it. "Truss talked about removing IR35, but didn't do it. www.contractorweekly.com/tax-a-ir35-news/former-pm-truss-calls-for-an-end-to-ir35/ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35 - IR35 was introduced in the late 90s, and put a stop to massive urine-extraction amongst "disguised employee" IT contractors, many of whom had been in their roles for years and were paying virtually no tax. It was a very good thing." Truss stated she would get rid of the changes to IR35 that made firms responsible for tax, Sunak (who put this in as chancellor) soon after taking office stated this was staying. I know all about IR35 as I have been looking into/fighting it for 25 years since before it's introduction by Dawn Primarolo and had many contracts checked and would refuse any inside IR35 and also pay a yearly subscription for legal protection. It is wrong to say "paying virtually no tax", there is corporation tax, VAT, dividend tax, employers and employees NI on salary which most people took some or all of their earnings (usually advised by accountants to do this to avoid problems with HMRC and essential if you want a mortgage ant any stage). Also unable to claim for travel after 2 years, not very good if you are working away from home especially abroad and coming home at weekends as a number of people I knew did. This is no different from many independent people working in the UK. The only contractors paying no tax that I knew were some Indian guys one of whom was on the next desk to me, they got all the fees paid into offshore companies and did this for years. If HMRC found out about this they were going to leave the country and go elsewhere. After it was defeated many times in court by IT contractors investigated by HMRC Rishi Sunak put the responsibility on the companies to pay the tax as he knows they would not get into a fight with HMRC (even if tax was not due but HMRC will always say it is) over for them a minor issue and not their money anyway. This backfired as a number of contractors took the companies to court stating the tax should not have been deducted and won. The companies could not get the tax back from HMRC so banned all contractors, what a great move, someone like me now cannot get contract and are too old to be taken on in a permanent role. Great win for Infosys, more lucrative work in the UK as UK citizens removed as a competitor. As I say all could be coincidence but seems a lot of them which benefit Sunak and while he was PM large increase in Infosys contacts with UK government .
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 1, 2024 11:59:43 GMT
It is hard to see who wrote what there ?
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Trump
Aug 2, 2024 19:18:40 GMT
Post by captainconfident on Aug 2, 2024 19:18:40 GMT
"I heard the scientists say the other day...."
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michaelc
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Trump
Aug 2, 2024 19:41:40 GMT
Post by michaelc on Aug 2, 2024 19:41:40 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 2, 2024 20:00:29 GMT
As a Trump supporter I expect you to deny that there are any "odds" on Trump winning. Fake news! #stopthesteal. The fix is in deep state stop the count. Proud Boys stand down and stand by.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 2, 2024 20:30:52 GMT
As a Trump supporter I expect you to deny that there are any "odds" on Trump winning. Fake news! #stopthesteal. The fix is in deep state stop the count. Proud Boys stand down and stand by. I think you know I'm not the usual kind of Trump supporter. I support him for one reason and one reason only.
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