keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 12, 2024 21:00:25 GMT
i have a friend whose income is variable and low
her income varies by around £100 a month from what I've seen
because she gets some universal credit she also gets help with council tax and rent.
however after a bad month for earnings the following month she pays £10 Council tax and gets £200 help with rent
After a good month for earnings the following month she pays £90 of her council tax and gets £150 help with her rent
so by earning an extra £100 she is £30 worse off
what sort of stupid system is it ?
Where is the incentive for her to work
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Jun 12, 2024 21:12:45 GMT
There isn't.
That's why we have so many long term"ill" or unavailable for work.
By the time all the freebies are added in on top of the benefits, you prob need to earn over 25k to make it worthwhile. Especially if you have kids.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jun 13, 2024 4:23:53 GMT
Are you saying the system is so robust that the rent and council tax payment changes every month?
Is there any incentive for her to increase earning like £1000 extra per month with a different income source?
sounds like £100 extra is not worth it.
She is definitely worse off if she has been “evicted” and starts paying “real” rent
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 13, 2024 6:22:36 GMT
I don't think anybody's ever denied there's a "benefits trap" for those working and earning *just* enough to be around the limit for UC. Quite the opposite, it seems to be just about universally acknowledged.
This can really only be through deliberate government design choices, making the cut-off hard so if you earn £1 more you lose a big chunk, and making signing on and off far harder and slower than it needs to be.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Jun 13, 2024 6:38:21 GMT
I have a friend whi Is a manager at a local factory. He can't get local people to do more than 18hrs a week as they lose benefits.
He is now using an agency to bus in Ukrainians from 20 miles away.
Something isn't right with a system that works like this.
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jlend
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Post by jlend on Jun 13, 2024 6:50:16 GMT
The partner of one of my brothers is a senior nurse. She doesn't do overtime exactly because of what you say. Do overtime one month and you loose some UC the next month. It makes budgeting difficult for low income families already finding finance hard to understand and manage. She does more than the 18 hours minimum as standard.
I guess there is no easy answer.
Significantly better online systems would help so claimants can see exactly what would happen in their own specific circumstances. That way they could more easily plan ahead
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jun 13, 2024 6:57:15 GMT
agreed, there’s always time for people complaining working more hours when they earn just around the boundary. What’s the point of earning £500 extra 12 hour shift when gov taxes £200 for higher earners.
The question we should ask ourselves? why can’t the employer pay more to compensate “penalties” for working more? i suppose it can be done based on personal circumstances.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Jun 13, 2024 7:19:28 GMT
Making people work for their benefits appears the obvious answer.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 13, 2024 7:35:41 GMT
I don't think anybody's ever denied there's a "benefits trap" for those working and earning *just* enough to be around the limit for UC. Quite the opposite, it seems to be just about universally acknowledged. This can really only be through deliberate government design choices, making the cut-off hard so if you earn £1 more you lose a big chunk, and making signing on and off far harder and slower than it needs to be. But surely it isn't just UC. Pretty much all the prior systems also had benefits traps. I thought that one of the explicit objectives of UC was to remove/reduce such traps to support and encourage people to work more. Or maybe I just dreamed that.
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mogish
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Post by mogish on Jun 13, 2024 7:43:10 GMT
I think you just dreamed it.
The reality is as described above.
Work more .earn no more. It's human nature if you can get something fir nothing you take it.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 13, 2024 9:11:01 GMT
Are you saying the system is so robust that the rent and council tax payment changes every month? Is there any incentive for her to increase earning like £1000 extra per month with a different income source? sounds like £100 extra is not worth it. She is definitely worse off if she has been “evicted” and starts paying “real” rent Ironically until last year they accepted an estimate of earning for the year and paid the same every month then did a reconcilliation at year end and adjusted the next years payments. Yes the Council tax and Housing benefit change monthly, and as adrianc says earn enough one month to lose all entitlement and get "signed off" then takes ages ( at least 6 weeks ) to get UC restored - No UC no council tax or housing benefit, so they could then be 2-3 months being restored,
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Jun 13, 2024 11:28:55 GMT
Would open banking and a bit of AI would make things smoother? At least monitoring the claimant bank accounts and make adjustment.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 13, 2024 11:53:44 GMT
I think you just dreamed it. The reality is as described above. Work more .earn no more. It's human nature if you can get something fir nothing you take it. I'm not disputing that is how it is in reality. I just thought that the original vision was that it would be designed to remove these sort of ridiculous barriers.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 13, 2024 12:35:11 GMT
I have a friend whi Is a manager at a local factory. He can't get local people to do more than 18hrs a week as they lose benefits. He is now using an agency to bus in Ukrainians from 20 miles away. Something isn't right with a system that works like this. Why then don't these Ukranians do the same thing?
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Jun 13, 2024 14:30:08 GMT
A work ethic, or perhaps they don't qualify for benefits not having been here long enough.
I hear rumours that some of the people on the universal basic income pilot in Wales ( 635 care leavers getting £1,600 a month on top of anything they might earn etc ) are upset that the scheme may stop at the end of the pilot and are considering suing to force the Government to pay it for life.
as a Pilot I had issues with it, it only had one specific group of participants ( care leavers ) rather than say care leavers, single parents, people caring for disabled children or elderly relatives, long term unable to work, or long term unemployed, people with mental health issues etc ( and yes I know that care leavers could fall into other groups )
and yes this probably cycles back to my friend with a UBI system paying £x per month she could better plan a budget, she wouldn't need to claim UC and thus get the associated Council tax and housing benefit - not having to pay those would save money on admin etc, and I felt it would be a great idea to pilot more widely.
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