keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Jul 3, 2024 20:36:23 GMT
of course at one time it was a napple which has become an apple The word umpire first entered English in the mid-14th century as noumpere, from the Old French nonper, which meant “odd number” (from “not equal”) and was used to denote a third-person arbitrator in disputes. The initial N was lost within a hundred years because our lazy forbears in mangling the English tongue misheard a noumpere as an oumpere.
I awoke my sleeping husband, Pavel, to tell him the news. And then, on my way to the shower, I remembered Little Johnny. I suggested that this fascinating numpire situation was precisely the opposite of the old joke, which I had to tell him, because he was still in Czechoslovakia when it was making the rounds in the third-grade classrooms. As I gathered the supplies for my morning ablutions, I suddenly remembered that the Spanish word for orange is naranja! I was off and running–back to the etymology dictionary, of course.
My instincts were right; however, it was the French forbears who were lazy this time. The Sanskrit naranga-s (orange tree) became the Persian narang and then the Arabic naranj and hence to Old French. Perhaps, indeed, it was le petit Jean who misheard une narange, which thereby became since time immemorial (well, before the 13th century, anyway, when the word came to English) une orange.nicked from justewords.com/2016/10/10/a-napple-a-norange-and-a-numpire/ |
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adrianc
Member of DD Central
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Post by adrianc on Jul 3, 2024 22:14:48 GMT
A Historic
or
An 'istoric
would both be fine, aurally.
It's all down to how much you pronounce H as a consonant.
An Historic
or
A 'istoric
would both sound odd.
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 4, 2024 8:57:53 GMT
A Historicor An 'istoricwould both be fine, aurally. It's all down to how much you pronounce H as a consonant. An Historicor A 'istoricwould both sound odd. "An Historic" is precisely the current BBC usage that I'm complaining about. Berny was right, these seem to be originally French words, Hotel, Historic, Hour - where the 'H' is silent, transferred to English and picking up an 'an'. But in the former two cases we've started pronouncing the 'h'. That is an andy thing to know.
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scooter
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Post by scooter on Jul 4, 2024 9:02:42 GMT
I thought you used 'an' if the following word started with a vowel. For example in sport you have:
And in the wider world you have an idiot or a waste of space
There are SO many exceptions in the English language that you could write a book on it... and indeed people have. PS. 'An hour' breaks your rules  . So does "a university"
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Post by bernythedolt on Jul 4, 2024 10:07:14 GMT
There are SO many exceptions in the English language that you could write a book on it... and indeed people have. PS. 'An hour' breaks your rules . So does "a university" "An honourable" exception.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2024 12:01:46 GMT
A Historicor An 'istoricwould both be fine, aurally. It's all down to how much you pronounce H as a consonant. An Historicor A 'istoricwould both sound odd. "An Historic" is precisely the current BBC usage that I'm complaining about. Berny was right, these seem to be originally French words, Hotel, Historic, Hour - where the 'H' is silent, transferred to English and picking up an 'an'. But in the former two cases we've started pronouncing the 'h'. That is an andy thing to know.The andy I know doesn't know that. The hotel rule and the reason I'm familiar with. And I would always use 'an hotel' without hesitation (or repetition or deviation, come to that matter). In written form. In verbal, I would probably move between the two depending on what feels 'comfortable' in the mouth so to speak. "Have you got an hotel for the night?" "There's a hotel over there". With 'historic', having tried it out a bit, I'm pretty sure verbally I tend to use 'an'. "An historic event" feels entirely natural. "A historic moment" feels awkward. Even though I think I'm more likely to have a silent 'h' in the first and a slightly harder 'h' in the second usage. But I've still no idea what andy thinks about it.
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 4, 2024 16:34:11 GMT
"An Historic" is precisely the current BBC usage that I'm complaining about. Berny was right, these seem to be originally French words, Hotel, Historic, Hour - where the 'H' is silent, transferred to English and picking up an 'an'. But in the former two cases we've started pronouncing the 'h'. That is an andy thing to know.The andy I know doesn't know that. The hotel rule and the reason I'm familiar with. And I would always use 'an hotel' without hesitation (or repetition or deviation, come to that matter). In written form. In verbal, I would probably move between the two depending on what feels 'comfortable' in the mouth so to speak. "Have you got an hotel for the night?" "There's a hotel over there". With 'historic', having tried it out a bit, I'm pretty sure verbally I tend to use 'an'. "An historic event" feels entirely natural. "A historic moment" feels awkward. Even though I think I'm more likely to have a silent 'h' in the first and a slightly harder 'h' in the second usage. But I've still no idea what andy thinks about it. You have clearly been possessed by Satan if you say 'an' and then pronounce the H. If you are doing it, look and see if the person you are talking to doesn't flinch slightly and look at you through narrowed eyes.
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ethel
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Post by ethel on Jul 4, 2024 17:21:12 GMT
You guys will argue about anything it seems to me. My old headmistress used to say "there is no Haitch in Aitch" to emphasise that the H wasn't pronounced in most words beginning with H, a point lost on us cockney kids.
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adrianc
Member of DD Central
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Likes: 5,131
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Post by adrianc on Jul 4, 2024 18:23:00 GMT
You guys will argue about anything it seems to me. My old headmistress used to say "there is no Haitch in Aitch" to emphasise that the H wasn't pronounced in most words beginning with H, a point lost on us cockney kids. Your 'eadmistress?
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ethel
Posts: 153
Likes: 179
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Post by ethel on Jul 4, 2024 18:56:31 GMT
You guys will argue about anything it seems to me. My old headmistress used to say "there is no Haitch in Aitch" to emphasise that the H wasn't pronounced in most words beginning with H, a point lost on us cockney kids. Your 'eadmistress? Ha ha, yes! We'd miss 'em off when they were required and add them when they weren't there at all! Out in the big wide world "talking proper" became more important though, and over the years my accent has changed to the extent that I am now regarded by my brother as "talkin' posh".
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Post by mostlywrong on Jul 4, 2024 19:12:57 GMT
My mother was a teacher. I left school with a Home Counties accent: almost posh.
My first job was in the rough and tumble of large scale mechanical engineering where I stood out like a sore thumb. Within a year I could swear like a trooper and my posh accent had vanished.
I then decided to study for some new stuff called computing and left the rough and tumble for a more genteel world.
I earned promotion because I understood both the computing world and could talk the walk, and the mechanical world, where I could walk the walk.
As a chameleon, being able to change accents and grammar helped me with my career.
Nevertheless, many years later, I can still hear my English teacher (Oxon and drama college since you ask) whenever I open my gob.
MW
Edited to add: I use "an historic" and "an 'otel"!
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tallsuk
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Post by tallsuk on Jul 4, 2024 19:34:40 GMT
Although we are taught in school to use a before constanants and an before a vowel based on the way words are written, it is actually used on the way phoneme (the way a word sounds) and not on the grapheme (the way a word is written).
In words where the H is pronounced eg, hotel, hospital or happy, a is the correct but in words where the H is silent eg honour, hour or historic it is correct to use an.
With some U words such as university, user or universal, the phonic is a Y sound and therefore it is correct to use a instead of an.
Sorry for being pedantic but I am a primary school teacher and at least once a year I get some smart arse 10 year old trying to argue this point thinking they have broken the English language.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2024 20:04:57 GMT
Although we are taught in school to use a before constanants and an before a vowel based on the way words are written, it is actually used on the way phoneme (the way a word sounds) and not on the grapheme (the way a word is written). In words where the H is pronounced eg, hotel, hospital or happy, a is the correct but in words where the H is silent eg honour, hour or historic it is correct to use an. With some U words such as university, user or universal, the phonic is a Y sound and therefore it is correct to use a instead of an. Sorry for being pedantic but I am a primary school teacher and at least once a year I get some smart arse 10 year old trying to argue this point thinking they have broken the English language. yes, I think that point is well understood. Certainly that is what pretty much all of us will have had drilled into us at school. But part of the issue is what is the normal or indeed each individual's actual normal pronunciation of a word. I think there is flex here, and I think that flex is often even influenced by ones choose of indefinite article in a given sentence. I can easily see myself verbally renditioning both "an 'otel" and "a hotel" in different situations. Or even the same situation on different occasions. Likewise I can see myself doing the same - verbally - with historic ("hisstoric/'istoric") - though interestingly not I think with any "honour". Being pedantic is a good thing BTW. IMHO. Although I am also of the view that language is a living breathing thing and there is a limit. The rules should be known and understood, but allowed to evolve. It is part of the beauty and power of the English language. While we are on the subject of language, I came across this the other day. It made me chuckle. 
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Post by bracknellboy on Jul 4, 2024 20:09:25 GMT
The andy I know doesn't know that. The hotel rule and the reason I'm familiar with. And I would always use 'an hotel' without hesitation (or repetition or deviation, come to that matter). In written form. In verbal, I would probably move between the two depending on what feels 'comfortable' in the mouth so to speak. "Have you got an hotel for the night?" "There's a hotel over there". With 'historic', having tried it out a bit, I'm pretty sure verbally I tend to use 'an'. "An historic event" feels entirely natural. "A historic moment" feels awkward. Even though I think I'm more likely to have a silent 'h' in the first and a slightly harder 'h' in the second usage. But I've still no idea what andy thinks about it. If you are doing it, look and see if the person you are talking to doesn't flinch slightly and look at you through narrowed eyes. Agreed, but that wasn't what I was intending to say. I assumed the appropriate pronounciation would be deduced by the reader. so when I said "an hotel" I meant that to mean it would be said as "an 'otel". With regard to "historic", what I was trying to say is I think sometimes the h might sort of just be there but not hard, but not entirely silent. If such part way house can exist. Or maybe that is only in my head due to over analysing it in the 'ere and now.
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Post by captainconfident on Jul 4, 2024 23:01:01 GMT
I remember Alf Tupper (The Tough of the Track) being in a line up where some posh type was asking for volunteers with acting experience, and he put his hand up and says "Hi'm a hactor!". I do hear an element of overtrying to "talk proper" in an historic and an hotel. I don't think anyone said "an 'otel" since Hyacinth Bucket, even you @brackers.
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