adrianc
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 20:03:38 GMT
Post by adrianc on Aug 5, 2024 20:03:38 GMT
Would "throw the book at the rioters" include introducing legislation that makes refusing to remove a face covering at a protest punishable by a month in prison or a £1k fine? Possession of pyrotechnics at a protest a £1k fine? Climb on a memorial three months or a £1k fine? Do they count as illiberal and "totalitarian" enough? www.gov.uk/government/news/new-protest-laws-on-face-coverings-and-pyrotechnics
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 20:54:53 GMT
Post by keitha on Aug 5, 2024 20:54:53 GMT
Would "throw the book at the rioters" include introducing legislation that makes refusing to remove a face covering at a protest punishable by a month in prison or a £1k fine? Possession of pyrotechnics at a protest a £1k fine? Climb on a memorial three months or a £1k fine? Do they count as illiberal and "totalitarian" enough? www.gov.uk/government/news/new-protest-laws-on-face-coverings-and-pyrotechnicsSorry throwing books is sacrilege in my eyes. But as you say arresting them at the time is sometimes difficult so refusing to remove face coverings may be tricky to enforce. The youths that ride unplated motor bikes round here tend to wear face coverings and no helmets ( as Police have been told not to chase anyone not wearing a helmet )
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michaelc
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 20:59:20 GMT
Post by michaelc on Aug 5, 2024 20:59:20 GMT
So you're saying that as a result of these riots large swathes of "working class" will come to realise how the media works? That media has been... failing them in some way? That the middle class has yet to realise this? I still don't understand . I really don't. This isn't me just being deliberately awkward. I used "historically" because you used the word educated. ie past tense. Come on RM you're a clever chap as born out by the fact at least two others cottoned on to what I meant. However, I'll rephrase and add some colour: The press and TV are controlled or owned by our government or by a teeny tiny number of very wealthy people. They include Murdoch, a Saudi Arabian, a Russian dissident and some other very wealthy chaps. Yes the media is regulated but that regulation is very light tough - e.g. When back in the day, after a general election, The Sun said "It was the Sun Wot Won It" they weren't joking. Regulation doesn't prevent openly supporting one party or another and backing various changes to law. The individual owners of these outlets have enormous control over the output and general direction - obviously they own the outlet. What we are reading or watching is of a direct consequence to the strategy employed by these people. There is nothing conspiratorial about this whatsoever - it is just a boring fact. What I was trying to get across was that the people rioting didn't used to understand the above. Now they are communicating with one another they have realised it and better understood why certain outlets run certain stories. Notwithstanding VI's usual "wit", most of those on the streets are working class and thus it is that group that is learning the fastest about media control.
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michaelc
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 21:02:22 GMT
Post by michaelc on Aug 5, 2024 21:02:22 GMT
Would "throw the book at the rioters" include introducing legislation that makes refusing to remove a face covering at a protest punishable by a month in prison or a £1k fine? Possession of pyrotechnics at a protest a £1k fine? Climb on a memorial three months or a £1k fine? Do they count as illiberal and "totalitarian" enough? www.gov.uk/government/news/new-protest-laws-on-face-coverings-and-pyrotechnicsSorry throwing books is sacrilege in my eyes. But as you say arresting them at the time is sometimes difficult so refusing to remove face coverings may be tricky to enforce. The youths that ride unplated motor bikes round here tend to wear face coverings and no helmets ( as Police have been told not to chase anyone not wearing a helmet )Solution - allow me to ride my zzr1400 without a helmet as it reasonably impacts nobody else except myself.
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adrianc
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 21:23:57 GMT
Ace likes this
Post by adrianc on Aug 5, 2024 21:23:57 GMT
most of those on the streets are working class and thus it is that group that is learning the fastest about media control. I would suggest that many of those on the streets are learning very fast just how easy it is to be manipulated by unregulated sources of "alternative facts".
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michaelc
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Riots
Aug 5, 2024 21:56:51 GMT
Post by michaelc on Aug 5, 2024 21:56:51 GMT
But he's on holiday in Cyprus
https://
https:// https:// Not bad for somebody who's not even 18 months clear of bankruptcy, is it? Wonder who's picking the tab up? I'd not want to spread the location of him and his kids as they are at risk of being attacked.
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Post by captainconfident on Aug 5, 2024 23:53:29 GMT
I'd be interested in a list of information sources which are considered to be credible alternatives to MSM, please. Specific to this issue or general (ideally both). I was interested in this question. Apart from Colonel Fishcake, what other non-MSM sources are more trustworthy and credible than the MSM? I am open to becoming better informed. Seriously, I am not asking this in order to mock anyone's choices. I hear things like "The kids today don't listen to the BBC. They get all their news from Instagram and Ticktok". What does that mean in practice? Is that where"non-MSM" resides? Have to admit I don't use either.
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Greenwood2
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Riots
Aug 6, 2024 8:37:45 GMT
Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 6, 2024 8:37:45 GMT
Hard to find positives in all of this but if there is one it is that large swathes of the working class have been educated to realise that our media is either government owned or controlled or is owned by a tiny group of very wealthy businessmen. Hopefully the middle class such as on this forum will catch on in time. Which for some reason translates into believing any old rubbish some random person says on social media and acting on it violently without actually checking if any of it is true. Definitely an improvement don't you think?
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Greenwood2
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Post by Greenwood2 on Aug 6, 2024 8:40:15 GMT
Sorry throwing books is sacrilege in my eyes. But as you say arresting them at the time is sometimes difficult so refusing to remove face coverings may be tricky to enforce. The youths that ride unplated motor bikes round here tend to wear face coverings and no helmets ( as Police have been told not to chase anyone not wearing a helmet )Solution - allow me to ride my zzr1400 without a helmet as it reasonably impacts nobody else except myself. Except some poor sod will have to live with the guilt of killing you, even though it was at least partially your own fault. Edit: And your family obviously.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Aug 6, 2024 8:46:35 GMT
So you're saying that as a result of these riots large swathes of "working class" will come to realise how the media works? That media has been... failing them in some way? That the middle class has yet to realise this? I still don't understand . I really don't. This isn't me just being deliberately awkward. I used "historically" because you used the word educated. ie past tense. Come on RM you're a clever chap as born out by the fact at least two others cottoned on to what I meant. However, I'll rephrase and add some colour: The press and TV are controlled or owned by our government or by a teeny tiny number of very wealthy people. They include Murdoch, a Saudi Arabian, a Russian dissident and some other very wealthy chaps. Yes the media is regulated but that regulation is very light tough - e.g. When back in the day, after a general election, The Sun said "It was the Sun Wot Won It" they weren't joking. Regulation doesn't prevent openly supporting one party or another and backing various changes to law. The individual owners of these outlets have enormous control over the output and general direction - obviously they own the outlet. What we are reading or watching is of a direct consequence to the strategy employed by these people. There is nothing conspiratorial about this whatsoever - it is just a boring fact. What I was trying to get across was that the people rioting didn't used to understand the above. Now they are communicating with one another they have realised it and better understood why certain outlets run certain stories. Notwithstanding VI's usual "wit", most of those on the streets are working class and thus it is that group that is learning the fastest about media control. Michael, thank you for that. It's a lot clearer. I have some sympathy, with some of it, but I disagree with your conclusions. 1. I disagree with you that the BBC is controlled by the government. Influenced? Yes. Controlled? Too strong. 2. ITV is public company. 3. Channel 4 is a publicly owned not-for-profit corporation. All of the above compete with each other. Were they to be controlled by the government why would they produce so much material that is critical of the government of the day? How often do you see any of them take the others to task for bias in their coverage (which would seem to be a fairly obvious line of attack in a competitive market)? It doesn't happen. Nor are there many (any?) examples of other "mainstream media" taking them to task for bias in their coverage. Ergo... there isn't enough for it to be a material issue. Unless you're advocating a position that sees all mainstream media, globally, in cahoots? Really? The BBC is not perfect. It is a large, complex, sprawling organisation. It doesn't (and couldn't) get everything right, all of the time. I'm not a huge fan of the license fee model (though in some ways it helps keep it at some remove from the government). It's had its fair share of scandals, from Jimmy Saville to Huw Edwards (but then what large organisation that's existed for decades hasn't), and I think some of its policies are... unhelpful. The most obvious of which is its attempt to provide "balanced" coverage of the public debate leading up to Brexit (though I imagine some reading this will disagree with me on this issue). I don't have Sky, and I don't read the Murdoch press. Nor do I read the Evening Standard, and I don't read the Telegraph, so I avoid some of the groups you don't like. You're right, the owners of these news organisations can (though don't always) exert outsize influence on the content they release. But there are many, many other legitimate news content providers competing for our attention, and for our wallet. Just to name a few, the FT, the Economist (one reason I like the Economist is because they are so fast, and so rigorous in publishing an apology / correction when they get something wrong), the Guardian, New Scientist, Reuters, Nature, Associated Press, industry / issue / interest group specific publications etc, and that's before you look to consume foreign media, whether you're talking Al Jazeera, CNN, the WSJ, Die Welt, or Le Monde. In today's world it is trivial to take competing coverage of an event and compare the reporting, analysis and opinion offered. How often do you see eg Al Jazeera or even RT taking the BBC (or the Guardian, or the FT etc) to task for false or biased reporting? You don't, so... And you believe in free speech, and freedom of the press, right? You have a strange blindspot regarding the BBC. Over the years we've inhabited this forum the vast majority (95%?) of your complaints regarding the BBC have been demonstrated to be down to you not reading the article, not understanding the article, not doing your own trivially easy research or a concern over the nuance of presentation or language. And yet you continue to routinely demonise them. Is BBC out of step, or are you? So a question for you. Do you think the thugs that have been conducting this recent campaign of intimidatory violence would have been better served by reading, and believing, material on the BBC, or reading and believing provably false material spread anonymously on Telegram and Facebook by unknown people with unknown agendas and unknown backing? (Just for clarity I don't work for any press organisation, and I have no friends or family who do (one son of a friend of mine covers a local business beat for a regional BBC outlet but that's hardly of national significance, let alone international...)). EDIT: Actually I do consume some Times / Telegraph content. Sometimes I listen to their Ukraine related podcasts on youtube. I don't always agree with it but in the main find it to be useful.
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Riots
Aug 6, 2024 13:33:21 GMT
Post by bracknellboy on Aug 6, 2024 13:33:21 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Aug 6, 2024 14:43:41 GMT
Isn't insurance and public money going to pay for this? Relying on charity whilst a nice gesture is a slippery slope IMO. registerme - thanks for your thoughtful reply and I'll hopefully get a chance to reply properly at a later point.
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adrianc
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Riots
Aug 6, 2024 15:20:19 GMT
Post by adrianc on Aug 6, 2024 15:20:19 GMT
Come on RM you're a clever chap as born out by the fact at least two others cottoned on to what I meant. However, I'll rephrase and add some colour: The press and TV are controlled or owned by our government or by a teeny tiny number of very wealthy people. They include Murdoch, a Saudi Arabian, a Russian dissident and some other very wealthy chaps. Yes the media is regulated but that regulation is very light tough - e.g. When back in the day, after a general election, The Sun said "It was the Sun Wot Won It" they weren't joking. Regulation doesn't prevent openly supporting one party or another and backing various changes to law. The individual owners of these outlets have enormous control over the output and general direction - obviously they own the outlet. What we are reading or watching is of a direct consequence to the strategy employed by these people. There is nothing conspiratorial about this whatsoever - it is just a boring fact. What I was trying to get across was that the people rioting didn't used to understand the above. Now they are communicating with one another they have realised it and better understood why certain outlets run certain stories. Notwithstanding VI's usual "wit", most of those on the streets are working class and thus it is that group that is learning the fastest about media control. Michael, thank you for that. It's a lot clearer. I have some sympathy, with some of it, but I disagree with your conclusions. 1. I disagree with you that the BBC is controlled by the government. Influenced? Yes. Controlled? Too strong. 2. ITV is public company. 3. Channel 4 is a publicly owned not-for-profit corporation. Not only the broadcast media, but... Daily Mirror and Daily Express are owned by the same public company. Guardian is owned by a not-for-profit trust Daily Telegraph is currently for sale after the joint Saudi-sovereign-wealth/US-public-company bidder abandoned the purchase from the British bank who repossessed it from the former owner. (One of the bids currently rumoured is led by Nadhim Zahawi, another may be from the owner of GB News.) That leaves the Independent (40% Lebedev, 30% non-royal Saudi, 25% Justin Byam Shaw*), Mail/i/Metro (Lord Rothermere) and Times/Sun (Murdoch). So, yes, it's too lazy and trite to say "the papers have a billionaire owner". * - media entrepreneur and food charity philanthropist - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66132470
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Aug 6, 2024 15:22:32 GMT
Target £500, raised so far £128k
Wonder if I should start a Go-Fund-Me page to cover the cost of my next holiday (value of my stocks and shares has gone down a bit in the last week).
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Riots
Aug 6, 2024 15:37:24 GMT
Post by keitha on Aug 6, 2024 15:37:24 GMT
Isn't insurance and public money going to pay for this? Relying on charity whilst a nice gesture is a slippery slope IMO. registerme - thanks for your thoughtful reply and I'll hopefully get a chance to reply properly at a later point. I remember some years back there was severe flooding in Hull. the money from the Government was IIRC around £10,000 per house one woman was one the news saying she should get more because other people had more money than her and had insurance. There were complaints from others that they'd had the house emptied because the furniture was ruined then the insurance refused to pay out as they couldn't see the damaged stuff.
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