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Post by gramsky on Sept 21, 2024 4:42:09 GMT
You have to work 5 years longer paying tax and NI. and I understand a fair number of people have started taking pension at 55 and by 65 have withdrawn and spent it all But how does it affect the 25% tax free lump sum.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 6:51:42 GMT
I can remember taxes on alcohol and fuel being changed from "6 o'clock tonight" I think it was dome with tobacco duty as well this always used to be how it was done. I'm not sure whether that has been the case in recent years as I've taken less notice. But I believe it is still the case. I was under impression that there are some changes to existing taxes which do not require parliamentary approval i.e. do not require the passing of a Finance Bill. But I now believe that is not correct and rather that what happens is that for some elements, and these typically being part of that, a "Ways and Means" resolution for Provisional Collection of Taxes is passed at end of the Budget statement. This then empowers the government to collect these taxes as if they have had been raised (with perhaps the actual formal embodiment of the increase being included in the later Finance Bill).
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 7:00:54 GMT
I can remember taxes on alcohol and fuel being changed from "6 o'clock tonight" I think it was dome with tobacco duty as well Not quite the same as pension tax is it! All thet needs to happen is for the off license to put up prices to suit to cover the extra tax that they collect for the Government. And this thread is about pensions not booze and fags. Alcohol excise duty is an indirect tax: it is paid by the producer / importer, not collected for the government by the retailer in the way that VAT is. I thought the same was true for tobacco products as well. Though it may be a bit more complicated than that since that is both an absolute amount and an additional %age of the retail price.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 7:27:25 GMT
This Government has a huge majority. If it wanted to increase VAT from 20% to, say, 25% it could do so from midnight on the 30th.
The mood music probably indicates that the so-called sin taxes will be sharply increased from midnight: booze, baccy and fuel taxes.
Anything and everything else is up for grabs. And that includes pensions.
However, one of the reasons for moving the Budget from March to the Autumn was because it takes time to tease out the legislation and allow the financial bodies to sort out the issues in time for the start of the new tax year on April 6th.
If the Chancellor enacted something complex (and I consider anything to do with pensions to be complex) I expect that it will be for the new tax year.
But I am not the Chancellor.
If your plans would be "devastated", it might be best to grab the cash and run!
MW
Re. VAT: this is one of those that they do probably need to give a little bit of notice of to allow retailers to adjust pricing and EPS systems accordingly. So while in theory they could enact it "immediately", in practise I'm not sure that would be implementable. When we had temporary VAT reductions (remember those?), how quickly did those come into effect can anyone remember? Excise duties are a different kettle of fish. Oil prices have been coming down, and from an eco agenda point of view the near permanent freezing of the "fuel duty escalator" (which in real terms has been a "down escalator" for much of its recent life) can be viewed as bad policy. At least one of the motoring organisations has recently given the govt. good cover (if it wanted it) to raise fuel duties as they have asked for it ("duty cuts not being passed on to the motorist so govt. should raise it", to paraphrase). To the general point of "how quickly can changes be enacted". A few things and phrases come to mind. - Ways and Means Resolution to allow for Provisional Collection of Taxes: if they want to bump up tobacco/alcohol/fuel duty or other excise duties from say 6pm on budget day (or from midnight) then this is the mechanism to do it. It empowers the government to collect taxes as if they had already been passed in a Finance Bill. It always used to be what happens, I don't know about recently. - "Anti-Forestalling Measures": announcing that certain changes will be subject to AF measures i.e. the later Finance Bill will enact the changes as if they came into effect from date X (e.g. midnight on budget day). I expect increases in CGT and if they are I fully expect them to be subject to AF measures making them effective from say 01/10. - Retrospective application: although rare, these do happen where there is significant risk to the exchequer and the retroactive nature can be viewed as reasonable.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 7:40:32 GMT
On the question of tax free pension lump sum.
Who knows what they will do and how quickly. This has been such an important part of pension and retirement planning for so long that one wonders whether it will be viewed as far too controversial and cause way too much public unrest (but see "Winter Fuel Allowance" for a counter to that being a disincentive).
I think this is one they would absolutely put through the normal consultation process, and would not make effective overnight. I personally can't see it being abolished as such.
Could they raise the age? Yes. But I'd like to think they would do that overtime in a similar way to raising of the pension age. In order to allow people to adjust their retirement planning (so maybe raise it by say 1 year every 4 years until .....). But ultimately this is not going to deliver revenue "today".
Could they limit the amount that can be taken? They already do: the 25% is capped at the LSA with provisions for that to be 25% of your former LTA if you had a higher LTA than that in operation at the time of its abolition. So a small step might be to change that so that the standard LSA applies to everybody (this would impact me for example). If they do, this might be subject to Anti Forestalling measures.
Might they reduce the %age over time (a bit like stepwise changes to the pension age)?
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pikestaff
Member of DD Central
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Post by pikestaff on Sept 21, 2024 7:42:34 GMT
I have read in several places that the 25% tax free lump sum on pension payouts is threatened in the autumn bbudget.As I am still working past retirement age this could have a big impact on when I should retire to if still possible take advantage of this. But if the Govetnment do change it, when would it be implemented, either directly after the budget or at the start of the next financial year? Does anyone out there have any knowledge as to how difficult it would be to impose this immediately after the budget? It could be devastating for someone who is about to retire and has already committed that money to thier retirement plans.For which reason I think outright abolition is unlikely - even with notice. A cap on the tax free amount, and/or a tapered rate, seems more likely IMO. Edit: crossed with bracknellboy
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 7:55:47 GMT
I have read in several places that the 25% tax free lump sum on pension payouts is threatened in the autumn bbudget.As I am still working past retirement age this could have a big impact on when I should retire to if still possible take advantage of this. But if the Govetnment do change it, when would it be implemented, either directly after the budget or at the start of the next financial year? Does anyone out there have any knowledge as to how difficult it would be to impose this immediately after the budget? It could be devastating for someone who is about to retire and has already committed that money to thier retirement plans.For which reason I think outright abolition is unlikely - even with notice. A cap on the tax free amount, and/or a tapered rate, seems more likely IMO. Edit: crossed with bracknellboy Yes, but you managed to express the same concept far more succinctly.
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Post by mostlywrong on Sept 21, 2024 9:54:14 GMT
Suggestion in The Telegraph that one change could be to move "early retirement" from 55 to 60. archive.ph/cXo6vThe half-way house is already in place.
The age at which most people can take a personal pension will rise from 55 to 57 in 2028.
That change was enacted by the Tories a while ago.
MW
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 9:57:53 GMT
Suggestion in The Telegraph that one change could be to move "early retirement" from 55 to 60. archive.ph/cXo6vThe half-way house is already in place.
The age at which most people can take a personal pension will rise from 55 to 57 in 2028.
That change was enacted by the Tories a while ago.
MW
what I'm not so sure about is how that helps with government revenues. Is this more a nudge to keep people working for longer (which in turn may also help with revenues, but indirectly)?
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Post by mostlywrong on Sept 21, 2024 10:12:00 GMT
How does that affect the 25% tax free lump sum?
The 25% lump sum taken from your pension was limited to roughly £268,000 by the Tory government a short while back.
I have snipped this from the gov.uk website which was updated on 06 Apr 24:
/snip
Generally, you can take a tax-free lump sum from your pension of 25% of your pension pot, up to a maximum across all your arrangements of £268,275. This is your lump sum allowance.
Under certain circumstances, either:
you can also receive a serious ill-health lump sum your beneficiaries can receive a lump sum death benefit
Both are tax-free up to a maximum of £1,073,100. This is your lump sum and death benefit allowance.
Any tax-free lump sums and lump sum death benefits will count towards your overall limit of £1,073,100.
/snip
There are 2 important bits in bold text.
- The Tories imposed a limit on the tax-free cash where there wasn't one. Labour can now adjust that without any effort.
- The Life Time Allowance (LTA) that was, reportedly, removed by the Tories in the last Budget appears to be still in place.
I will add that none of these allowances are inflation-linked. The LTA has been static at £1.07 million for years.
I agree with the other commentators that pension changes are complex and unlikely to happen before next April. But, as Bracknellboy has pointed out, there are avenues that are open to the Government when they want to move quickly.
MW
MW
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Post by mostlywrong on Sept 21, 2024 10:16:06 GMT
The half-way house is already in place.
The age at which most people can take a personal pension will rise from 55 to 57 in 2028.
That change was enacted by the Tories a while ago.
MW
what I'm not so sure about is how that helps with government revenues. Is this more a nudge to keep people working for longer (which in turn may also help with revenues, but indirectly)? I cannot remember the reasoning behind the change other than it was on the back of the increase to the state pension age (from 65 to 66 and then 67) and the equalisation of the pension age for both men and women.
And, yes, it is all about revenues!
MW
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keitha
Member of DD Central
2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Post by keitha on Sept 21, 2024 10:44:40 GMT
You have to work 5 years longer paying tax and NI. and I understand a fair number of people have started taking pension at 55 and by 65 have withdrawn and spent it all But how does it affect the 25% tax free lump sum. Because people will be less likely to take it if it's taxed. I have a friend who is 63 he took his 25% 4 years ago and is "cashing in" chunks of his pension every year. when he hits 67 he will be asset rich and cash poor. his attitude is the state won't let him starve. Maybe it is time to look at limiting how much is cash terms can be taken tax free, remembering that many peoples contributions are tax free. I guess a fair limit would be £150,000 with tax paid as if income on anything above that. before people say £150,000 is outrageously high I was not a high flyer at work and when I took my pension 6 years ago with reductions for early retirement I could have taken £125,000, every £18.10 I took above the lower limit reduced my annual pension by £1. maybe it is unfair that many with good pensions get tax relief when paying in and then pay no tax on a large lump when it is withdrawn. yes I've seen the screams online that taxing pensions is unfair as you pay tax when you earn the money and tax again when you take it. I don't know of anyone that doesn't get tax relief on pension contributions so it is only right that they pay when it comes out. We do however need a system that encourages people to save for retirement, the current binary system of pension credits discourages those that would only get a small extra pension from saving. one thing that needs a serious look is class 2 voluntary NI It's £3.45 a week but adds £-6 a week to your state pension so basically you get your "investment" back in less than a year, the Voluntary NI to make up missing years is £900 a year that gets you the same return so pays for itself in under 3 years. Yes I do pay the voluntary class 2 NI I'd be stupid not to.
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 11:10:38 GMT
How does that affect the 25% tax free lump sum?
The 25% lump sum taken from your pension was limited to roughly £268,000 by the Tory government a short while back.
I have snipped this from the gov.uk website which was updated on 06 Apr 24:
/snip
Generally, you can take a tax-free lump sum from your pension of 25% of your pension pot, up to a maximum across all your arrangements of £268,275. This is your lump sum allowance.
Under certain circumstances, either:
you can also receive a serious ill-health lump sum your beneficiaries can receive a lump sum death benefit
Both are tax-free up to a maximum of £1,073,100. This is your lump sum and death benefit allowance.
Any tax-free lump sums and lump sum death benefits will count towards your overall limit of £1,073,100.
/snip
There are 2 important bits in bold text.
- The Tories imposed a limit on the tax-free cash where there wasn't one. Labour can now adjust that without any effort.
- The Life Time Allowance (LTA) that was, reportedly, removed by the Tories in the last Budget appears to be still in place.
I will add that none of these allowances are inflation-linked. The LTA has been static at £1.07 million for years.
I agree with the other commentators that pension changes are complex and unlikely to happen before next April. But, as Bracknellboy has pointed out, there are avenues that are open to the Government when they want to move quickly.
MW
MW
The LTA was actually abolished. But in order to retain the cap on the 25% tax free lump sum, the LSA was introduced - or kept if it was previously labelled as such. So the LSA was set at 25% of the then LTA. For those who took transitional relief when the LTA had previously been reduced, they retained an LSA in line with 25% of their nominal LTA.
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Post by mostlywrong on Sept 21, 2024 13:12:35 GMT
Bracknellboy,
I won't quote your bit but you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.
So, you reckon that the LSA is about the lump sum (from a pension (plural if you are lucky)) and if you exceed that, you are hit with the 55% tax?
Where/how does the allowance for the death benefit kick in?
MW
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Post by bracknellboy on Sept 21, 2024 13:40:22 GMT
Bracknellboy,
I won't quote your bit but you obviously know a lot more about this than I do.
So, you reckon that the LSA is about the lump sum (from a pension (plural if you are lucky)) and if you exceed that, you are hit with the 55% tax?
Where/how does the allowance for the death benefit kick in?
MW
Yes. LSA = "Lump Sum Allowance" TBH, on the second part I don't know what you are referring to when you say "death benefit". If you are referring to what happens to residual DC pension pots on death of the holder, my understanding is that they can be passed on to spouse (I don't know whether there is a wider definition but would assume at the very least 'civil partner) free of IHT. There is no 'allowance' or 'benefit' as such because the whole lot can be passed on IHT free. This however is not something I've done any research on in recent times, so is just my understanding. Is that what you were referring to?
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