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Post by swfab on Feb 15, 2015 23:03:51 GMT
I wonder if someone could help me understand some behaviour I've been noticing and watching in the different markets (at least in 3-year and 5-year) over the last 3 months where it seems that loans of more than £25000 are being made...regularly. My understanding was that a borrower on Ratesetter could get loan for a maximum of £25,000. Yet, on Thursday 12th Feb this week, I finally decided to get snapshots of what was happening in the 3-year and 5-year markets on that day. The snapshot I took of the 3-year market shows that: * 1 single order of £104,630.00 at 5% was in the queue (snapshot taken on 2015-02-12 at 13:16.48). * The funds in that market were £117.5K....already quite low. * Another snapshot taken on 2015-02-12 at 13:29.59 shows that that order got matched to many lenders from 5.1% to 6.9%, reducing the total funds in that market to £13.5k. Same for the 5-year market around the same time (13:24) for 1 single order of £42,664.95 at 6.2% that got matched 10 minutes later to lenders from 6.3% and 6.4%. Back in November 2014, 1 single order in the 5-year market was for more than £325K and got matched...no snapshot for that one however. Am I missing something? Below are the snapshots: 1. 3-year_Screen Shot 2015-02-12 at 13.16.48 2. 3-year_Screen Shot 2015-02-12 at 13.29.59 3. 5-year_Screen Shot 2015-02-12 at 13.24.12 4. 5-year_Screen Shot 2015-02-12 at 13.34.36
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Post by swfab on Feb 15, 2015 23:16:03 GMT
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Feb 16, 2015 0:06:32 GMT
I think that the maximum unsecured person loan might be £25k, but I'm sure that I have had loans in my list for £250K. i can't remember the details but I think that there are some development loans which are secured. The point is that RS have other borrowers other than those on the site. So the answer to your question is yes.
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Post by swfab on Feb 16, 2015 0:28:09 GMT
Thank you bigfoot12 for your answer. Ratesetter FAQ does make a mention of secure/unsecure, however it also does mention that any loan can be of £25K maximum (depending on circumstances, but 25K is still the max). The amounts that you and I have noticed, £100K+/£250K/£300K+, are more like mortgages, not loans and therefore should not fall onto ratesetter's domain. These are huge amounts and RateSetter makes no mention in their statistics of what such loans are for (like for buying a car, decorating a house, paying for shcool, pay-off debts, etc...). Who would ask for a loan of more than £100K+/£250K/£300K+ and for what? This seems all very shadowy to me.
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Post by pepperpot on Feb 16, 2015 0:33:53 GMT
I think the giffgaff deals get bundled into one larger order, and also take a look at the £500,000 Ratesetter loan thread.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 16, 2015 9:02:10 GMT
Who would ask for a loan of more than £100K+/£250K/£300K+ and for what? You seem to be assuming that each RS loan = 1 individual personal person. We know that isn't the case.
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Post by davee39 on Feb 16, 2015 9:41:54 GMT
The large loans were flagged a long time time ago as being secured loans offered through 3rd party introducers. So it seems likely we are in some way involved in the property market.
Unfortunately there is no 100% perfect high interest P2P investment available.
Zopa seems to be pure Person to Person. They target the 'best' borrowers and are slugging it out in a highly competitive market where banks get capital to lend from taxpayers at 0.5%*. This does not seem to work very well so 10 years after starting they are barely profitable.
The pure property lenders are clearly flagged and stand entirely on the strength of the property market.
The tiny Person to Person lenders remain an insignificant part of the market, some targeting risky borrowers at high rates
Business lending is a separate area and well discussed elsewhere.
This leaves Ratesetter as a fast growing and profitable company, though not without risk. The provision fund provides an extra layer of security against any potential losses from property and while I would probably prefer a much simpler customer base the evidence from other platforms suggests the market is not there. If interest rates rise in two or three years the banks might find it harder to compete with P2P allowing for substantial growth in the personal borrowing market.
Because the big loans are not available through the website a new lender may be wholly unaware as to who the borrowers are. If RS wanted to be completely transparent they could be clearer about where lenders money goes, but in a competitive market they are only obliged to meet the rather low standards set by the regulator.
* and in the world of fantasy economics and election bribes this 0.5% money is borrowed back at 4% via pensioner bonds (to encourage savings destroyed by the cheap lending in the first place).
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Post by swfab on Feb 16, 2015 10:30:15 GMT
Thanks pepperpot for the link and davee39 for the extra information. Thanks to this, I've also found more information as to what RS intentions and directions are, all very concerning to me: www.ratesetter.com/Blog/Article/Gaining_depth_and_breadthA few of points of concern are: * There is still no information whatsoever on RS website, apart from hidden in the blog above, about loans being made by lenders to businesses and sole traders. This is wrong and a troubling development in transparency. * This is not P2P anymore but P2B, a much riskier venture and not what I chose RS for originally. * No information about the businesses that money is being lent to. I originally started lending on RS, since Sept 2014 only, 'knowing' or assuming that my money was going to other _individuals_ and accepted much lower rates for this (than on other platforms such as Funding Circle or Ablrate). I have however been lending with Funding Circle for the last 2 years as well, knowing that my money was going to businesses and that some effort was required in understanding the business(es) and in spending time bidding for my money to be lent. I have therefore accepted much higher rates for this, which even after bad debt never went below 7% gross (even on A+, ie: thoses businesses that are assessed as the safest on FC), so even my avg return is much higher. Many thanks to all of you who replied and helped me understand what RS is doing. As you point out davee39, the current regulation is of low standards but that should not prevent RS from being open and go beyond what the regulator asks them to do. That would have been, to me, a very competitive aspect of keeping using that platform. We are a bunch a well informed people I believe (or strive to be, when money is involved) and RS, with it's lack of information and transparency seems to be assuming it is dealing with a bunch of dummies. This has permanently killed off any trust I had in them. As far as competition goes, I've now started withdrawing my funds from RS as they get repaid (monthly and 3-year markets) and put them now into zopa (to which I am a newcomer as of today :-) ) and others, wife to start with and friends as we discuss and review different peer lending platforms, will follow in my steps.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 16, 2015 12:28:21 GMT
Thanks pepperpot for the link and davee39 for the extra information. Thanks to this, I've also found more information as to what RS intentions and directions are, all very concerning to me: www.ratesetter.com/Blog/Article/Gaining_depth_and_breadthA few of points of concern are: * There is still no information whatsoever on RS website, apart from hidden in the blog above, about loans being made by lenders to businesses and sole traders. This is wrong and a troubling development in transparency. * This is not P2P anymore but P2B, a much riskier venture and not what I chose RS for originally. .. Thank you for the link. I do both p2c and p2b but I like to do my p2b lending without a provision fund. I do not trust provision funds to work for p2b unless the loans are small consumer sized, and that does not seem to be the case here. I chose RS specifically because it was p2c. This information (which I should have picked up on before) materially changes my perception of risk on RS. I'm still OK with my current exposure, but I have some large deposits maturing later this year that I was considering sending RS's way. I'm now much less likely to do that.
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Post by swfab on Feb 16, 2015 18:30:35 GMT
Indeed pikestaff, like you I treat p2p and p2b separately and use different platforms for these. Anyway, interestingly, the post below by a ratesetter representative proudly announced recently in another thread ("RateSetter in the news"): p2pindependentforum.com/thread/1809/ratesetter-news=========================================================== Jan 19, 2015 at 7:03pm westonkevRS said: This feels like old news to me, but it's good that people know we are profitable as this helps ensure the risk of platform failure diminishes: www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/peertopeer-lender-ratesetter-bullish-on-2015-prospects-9988130.html"Ratesetter made £104,000 in the year to March 2014" Kevin. =========================================================== The relevant extract from that link is: "Ratesetter allows investors to lend to either businesses or the public while setting their risk parameters"That article is from the Standard but or no-one, not even Ratesetter, reacted to that statement or everyone (apart from agent69, to whom ratesetter did not reply) accepted that: * Lenders have the choice of lending to either the public or businesses...?? * Lenders can set their risk parameters...?? What does the lender know or where does he find information about the businesses and how are they assessed by RS?....a credit agency or even two won't suffice or is just not adequate for that. Again, no official information reflects that announcement on the RS website and it still shows £25K as being the maximum loan.
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Post by accumul8 on Feb 17, 2015 10:43:26 GMT
All of this is more evidence that RS is acting like a bank but without the requirement to hold reserves. This is not a P2P platform - it is a P2RS2CorB platform with no transparency as to the profile or size of the borrowers.
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Post by davee39 on Feb 17, 2015 12:59:56 GMT
All of this is more evidence that RS is acting like a bank but without the requirement to hold reserves. This is not a P2P platform - it is a P2RS2CorB platform with no transparency as to the profile or size of the borrowers. Banks hold reserves because they lend money they do not have!! A 10% Reserve would provide some cover if lenders demanded their money back. RS lends, in general, under matched contracts where early return of funds depends on availability of new money. The exception is the monthly account where funds might not be available on maturity. I would suggest that this discussion indicates that while RS deserves a place in a P2P portfolio, there is also a place for diversity, even at lower rates elsewhere. It might be a mistake to shun RS entirely in favour of bottom fishing among the seedier competition. As RS grows they do have some work to do in creating a clear and transparent FAQ explaining how the lending model works, who the borrowers are and the role of the institutions. One final point, do not take comments in newspaper articles at face value. The people who write these articles (hacks, not journalists) have space to fill, and any old rubbish will do!
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Post by swfab on Feb 17, 2015 15:32:32 GMT
Thanks again davee39 for your comments. I did indeed mention who published that article assuming that most would think "oops, if the Standard and its great quality reporting says so, it must be true" ;-) . Still Ratesetter does not seem to be bothered about what comes out in the public domain and it still does not make any clearer its position on where lenders' money is going to (apart from personal loans) and for what max amount and how fraud detection, due diligence and risk assessment/grades are carried out for business and property related loans. Decision made last night (wife + 2 friends already...): * Our Monthly market holdings are now being withdrawn and will be out by mid March. * Unfortunately most of us put sizeable amounts in the 3-year market in November 2014. Repayments will be withdrawn monthly and not re-invested. RS has 3 years to make their different investment portfolio clear and transparent before all money is out :-) . * If RS is indeed unofficially involved into any property-related investments, it is not for us. Wellesley, Landbay, Lend Invest and Proplend among others already deal with those segments, which we are steering clear of. What this discussion has taught us however was to give ourselves a good positive kick for more diversification into more platforms (from 2 to now 5). * P2P: Money re-invested mostly into Zopa to start with and trial amounts into Lending Works and QuidCycle. * P2B: Funding Circle still with also trial amounts into Rebuilding Society. Soon maturing fixed-rate bonds which would otherwise have gone to RS, will be split between the above. Then it will be the turn of ISAs :-) ....hopefully...why not Pension funds, but not there yet ;-) . So more diversification and control and knowledge and transparency will be required. The best news about it all being that very soon no banks will have any of that money :-) .
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c88dnf
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Post by c88dnf on Feb 17, 2015 18:51:11 GMT
You invests your money and makes your choice, as the saying almost goes.
You might want to additionally check out each company's accounts at Companies House if you haven't already done so. Indeed I'd recommend every investor does that with every platform they consider using for investment.
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jonbvn
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Post by jonbvn on Feb 17, 2015 20:09:26 GMT
Wow! I read the ZOPA forum and see many lenders in a huff and threatening to remove their money. I read this forum and the same thing? As a lender on several p2p sites I am most comfortable with the money we (me & OH) have in RS. However I do agree diversity is wise with all investments.
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