blender
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Post by blender on Apr 5, 2015 7:32:39 GMT
On the timing of loans the following is relevant
'Legislation is proposed for Finance Bill 2016, however it is proposed that P2P lenders who
suffer bad debts on P2P loans between 6 April 2015 and 5 April 2016 that meet the
conditions for relief, will be able to claim relief in their 2015 tax returns.'
It speaks of when bad debts are suffered (ie when a default produces a loss) rather than speaking of loans which are originated from a particular date. The implication is clear, but this is not legislation. The operators will not wish lenders to be selling old and buying new to gain the extra protection.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Apr 7, 2015 16:17:08 GMT
One point to flag is that Article 36H (6)(a) specifically excludes agreements where the lender lends more than £25,000. I think (but am not sure) that this test applies at the time the loan is made. So big lenders, and underwriters, may not qualify for the relief. Are we talking about lenders' involvement in a given loan, or a given platform, or their entire P2P/P2B investment? I tend to agree with blender's view that loans will not qualify for the relief it they are not actually p2p, in which case loans on SS (for example) will not qualify. Does this add an extra level of urgency to savingstream's intention to reorganise themselves with a trust? Or is the trust irrelevant to this, such that this would require an even greater reorganisation for SS/Lendy?
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blender
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Post by blender on Apr 7, 2015 16:37:24 GMT
One point to flag is that Article 36H (6)(a) specifically excludes agreements where the lender lends more than £25,000. I think (but am not sure) that this test applies at the time the loan is made. So big lenders, and underwriters, may not qualify for the relief. Are we talking about lenders' involvement in a given loan, or a given platform, or their entire P2P/P2B investment? I tend to agree with blender's view that loans will not qualify for the relief it they are not actually p2p, in which case loans on SS (for example) will not qualify. Does this add an extra level of urgency to savingstream's intention to reorganise themselves with a trust? Or is the trust irrelevant to this, such that this would require an even greater reorganisation for SS/Lendy? On the second point the relevant part is:- The proposed relief is intended to be available to P2P lenders who meet the following criteria. Who are the legal creditor (lender) at the point when the loan is determined to have gone bad.So the question would be 'is the SS lender the legal creditor of the borrower?' At present not, and I do not think you would fix that by having a trust as the legal creditor.
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Post by easteregg on Apr 8, 2015 11:33:16 GMT
We should also consider that several of the big peer-to-peer companies in the UK are not regarded as "peer-to-peer" as far as the FCA is concerned and don't have "peer-to-peer lending" permission. I doubt lenders would be able to offset bad debts if the company does not operate within the P2P regulatory structure.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Apr 8, 2015 16:55:42 GMT
One point to flag is that Article 36H (6)(a) specifically excludes agreements where the lender lends more than £25,000. I think (but am not sure) that this test applies at the time the loan is made. So big lenders, and underwriters, may not qualify for the relief. Are we talking about lenders' involvement in a given loan, or a given platform, or their entire P2P/P2B investment? I tend to agree with blender's view that loans will not qualify for the relief it they are not actually p2p, in which case loans on SS (for example) will not qualify. Does this add an extra level of urgency to savingstream's intention to reorganise themselves with a trust? Or is the trust irrelevant to this, such that this would require an even greater reorganisation for SS/Lendy? First Q: In a given loan. Second Q: I'm not in SS and don't know exactly what SS envisage. On the face of it no trust will work (as per Blender's response) but I'm sure there will be representations on this, and there might conceivably be a small amount of movement. In particular, if a loan is made by a trust and the ONLY beneficiaries are the p2p lenders with pari passu interests therein, it's not really any different from direct lending.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Apr 8, 2015 16:59:54 GMT
On the timing of loans the following is relevant 'Legislation is proposed for Finance Bill 2016, however it is proposed that P2P lenders who suffer bad debts on P2P loans between 6 April 2015 and 5 April 2016 that meet the conditions for relief, will be able to claim relief in their 2015 tax returns.' It speaks of when bad debts are suffered (ie when a default produces a loss) rather than speaking of loans which are originated from a particular date. The implication is clear, but this is not legislation. The operators will not wish lenders to be selling old and buying new to gain the extra protection. I agree with your last sentence, but this contradicts what was said in the Budget Red Book, and in HMRC's Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates, both of which say the relief will be limited to loans made after the given date. I'd not count any chickens yet!
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duck
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Post by duck on Apr 9, 2015 17:22:33 GMT
There has been some very interesting thoughts in this thread so thanks all ........
But I can't help but think 'how difficult can it be to get this scheme up and running?' (ignoring officialdom and politicians)
I invest as an individual and through my Ltd Co (which is just me and my brain power - frightening but true)
If for instance I lent some money to a plumbing business through my Ltd Co and the plumbers went bust, a loss would be declared in the fullness of time and I would offset that loss against the profit that I had hopefully made elsewhere. I would then pay tax on the final profit....... and if I didn't make a profit that year I would carry the loss forwards and offset it against profits made in the following year.
Does a scheme for individuals have to be any more complicated?
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Apr 10, 2015 13:42:03 GMT
Does a scheme for individuals have to be any more complicated? I think HMRC are worried about a flood of claims for tax relief on those tenners you lent to your mate that never were repaid. And your mate's claim for relief for the tenners they lent to you that you didn't repay.
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blender
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Post by blender on Apr 11, 2015 9:03:34 GMT
On the timing of loans the following is relevant 'Legislation is proposed for Finance Bill 2016, however it is proposed that P2P lenders who suffer bad debts on P2P loans between 6 April 2015 and 5 April 2016 that meet the conditions for relief, will be able to claim relief in their 2015 tax returns.' It speaks of when bad debts are suffered (ie when a default produces a loss) rather than speaking of loans which are originated from a particular date. The implication is clear, but this is not legislation. The operators will not wish lenders to be selling old and buying new to gain the extra protection. I agree with your last sentence, but this contradicts what was said in the Budget Red Book, and in HMRC's Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates, both of which say the relief will be limited to loans made after the given date. I'd not count any chickens yet! Thanks, I have not read the other items. ' ... that meet the conditions for relief ...' could of course include the qualification that the loan must originate on or after 6 April 2015. Personally, I do not plan to have any more defaults. I do not see HMG wishing to allow tax relief on defaulted loans between individuals. I lend my mate £5k through a platform which he fails to pay back through the platform. I claim the tax relief. Too risky and for no public good in the first place. Businesses create wealth, employ people, and pay tax.
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Apr 11, 2015 9:46:09 GMT
I agree with your last sentence, but this contradicts what was said in the Budget Red Book, and in HMRC's Overview of Tax Legislation and Rates, both of which say the relief will be limited to loans made after the given date. I'd not count any chickens yet! Personally, I do not plan to have any more defaults. I've never planned any defaults, but sometimes they just appear from nowhere.
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blender
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Post by blender on Apr 11, 2015 10:27:05 GMT
Personally, I do not plan to have any more defaults. I've never planned any defaults, but sometimes they just appear from nowhere. OK, I plan to have no more defaults. I will be a complete default dodger, even on FC.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Jul 9, 2015 5:54:48 GMT
Very minor update in the summer budget yesterday:
2.74 Bad debt relief for peer to peer (P2P) industry – As announced at Autumn Statement 2014, the government will allow tax relief on bad debts incurred on P2P loans against other P2P income from April 2015. A technical note was published at March Budget 2015. Draft legislation will be published later this year. (Finance Bill 2016)
So: (1) we still have to wait for the draft legislation (2) the final legislation is due to be brought forward in the Finance Bill 2016, ie following the March 2016 budget.
This means we won't know the final rules until the end of the tax year, but we should have them in time to do our tax returns!
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duck
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Post by duck on Jul 9, 2015 16:54:37 GMT
It appears that detail will be low/not available throughout the tax year. In anticipation I am keeping a separate spreadsheet covering the losses I have incurred this tax year across all the platforms I invest in. It might take a bit of filtering when it comes to 'return time' but that way I do feel that I will have the information to hand. That said, I'm still no clearer what HMRC will accept as a 'bad debt' ......
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Jan 4, 2016 8:57:12 GMT
I somehow missed the draft legislation, which was published on 9 December together with draft HMRC guidance. See here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/bad-debt-relief-for-peer-to-peer-investments. It is now clear that the relief will be given for losses arising on or after 6 April 2015, without regard to when the loan was made. Relief will be given when a loan becomes irrecoverable; I will come back to this. You will only be able to claim the relief against p2p interest income. Relief for losses arising on or after 6 April 2016, against interest income on the same platform, will be given automatically. Relief for losses arising between 6 April 2015 and 5 April 2016, or against interest income on another platform, will have to be claimed. The draft legislation is silent on when a loan becomes irrecoverable. The draft HMRC guidance states: "When does a P2P loan become irrecoverable?
A loan may be accepted as having become irrecoverable when there is no reasonable prospect of the recovery of the loan. When assessing recoverability, the funds available and potentially available to the borrower must be considered. A claim therefore cannot be established simply because the borrower has insufficient liquidity on the date the loan had been called in.
Whether a loan has become irrecoverable should be judged on a case by case basis, however the following common examples are relevant:
- When the borrower has entered formal recovery procedures such as liquidation,
administration, receivership or bankruptcy the debt would normally be considered irrecoverable. - If the debt is released by the lender it would normally be considered irrecoverable.
As the loan will be managed by a platform, the platform would usually be in a position to determine when a loan has become irrecoverable. The platform would then inform the lender that the loan had become irrecoverable. [my emphasis]
Loans with security
Where loans are made against security, the loan would be treated as becoming irrecoverable as if the security did not exist.
- If the lender or the platforms has entered into formal recovery procedures (collection,
administration, receivership, seizure or liquidation of security, transfer to a recovery agent etc) the loan would normally be considered irrecoverable.
If the bad debt relief is given on an irrecoverable loan, and value is subsequently recovered from any loan security then this would be treated in the same way as any other subsequent recoveries of relieved irrecoverable loans (more detail in Unexpected recoveries)."This drafting is open to criticism because entering into a recovery or insolvency procedure is not of itself evidence that a loan is wholly irrecoverable, merely that some part of it may be. Do we get to provide for the expected loss at that time, or do we have to wait for more certainty? I hope we get some clarification of this in due course. However, this may only be a short-term issue because it is clear that HMRC will be relying heavily on the platforms. In order to make the "same platform" relief from 6 April 2016 automatic, I think reporting on bad debts by the platforms will be integrated with their tax reporting (including the tax statements they give us) and hence we will get the relief when the platforms tell us that we can have it. Platforms may also report bad debts to us for 2015/16 but it is not clear that they will be under any statutory obligation to do so. The big issue remains of how to deal with loans that defaulted prior to 5 April 2015. The desirable answer for these loans may be to recognise the loss as late as possible, but this is not what we will want for later defaults. No doubt HMRC will want consistency, but it is not at all clear what HMRC expects the cutoff to be!
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duck
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Post by duck on Jan 4, 2016 9:24:49 GMT
Thanks for that pikestaff I had missed it as well.
With the onus being placed on the platforms I wonder how 'keen' they will be state losses? Provision fund covered accounts?
.... lots of questions, need to do some digging
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