ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Aug 10, 2015 11:40:03 GMT
I guess it would be too much to hope that AC took the decision to now release the original Anglesey valuation to current holders of the Anglesey loan. I'll raise it internally but suspect we wouldn't do so until an outcome has been reached, if at all. For example if action beyond the sale of the property is required then the release of that information may prejudice that action. Does the fact that the property info is in the public domain though the marketing info and the borrower can be identified as a result (I believe) make any difference? Still dont quite understand why a redacted version cant be provided through the use of chunky black marker (standard on other platforms)?
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Post by chris on Aug 10, 2015 11:49:06 GMT
I'll raise it internally but suspect we wouldn't do so until an outcome has been reached, if at all. For example if action beyond the sale of the property is required then the release of that information may prejudice that action. Does the fact that the property info is in the public domain though the marketing info and the borrower can be identified as a result (I believe) make any difference? Still dont quite understand why a redacted version cant be provided through the use of chunky black marker (standard on other platforms)? There are legally binding contracts in place with the borrower, broker, valuer, etc. one or more of which could be breached were we to publish the information you're asking for. We're not keeping the information from lenders because we want to but because we are contractually bound to do so. If we ever need to pursue this recovery beyond the current action with the LPA receiver it is very important not to prejudice that through rash action now to placate unhappy lenders. That's not to say the information will never be made public it's just incredibly unlikely until matters have taken their course.
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Post by oldnick on Aug 10, 2015 13:39:57 GMT
I speak for several of the moderators when I say that the tone of this thread is not what we have come to expect from forum members. Strong emotions expressed this way will close down communications rather than improve them.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
Posts: 902
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Post by merlin on Aug 10, 2015 14:35:31 GMT
I speak for several of the moderators when I say that the tone of this thread is not what we have come to expect from forum members. Strong emotions expressed this way will close down communications rather than improve them. I agree with you but it is also worth asking what is causing emotions to run so high? IMHO it is because AC have been excessively dilatory in the manner in which they have dealt with this loan. As I have already pointed out this is not the only defaulted loan that AC are dealing with to the acute dissatisfaction of their lenders. My guess is that for the best part of a year AC's management have had their minds elsewhere and not on the knitting. IIRC firstly we had a tie-up with a US firm, then a venture to raise capital through SEEDERS and elsewhere, and then a supposed launch into the Invoice Discounting Market followed by some form of venture with RBS. My guess is that AH and his colleagues have had their hands full in dealing with all this rather than getting on top of problems back at the shop.
So it should not come as a surprise that some lenders are becoming very impatient with the way things are being managed at AC and to add to that the potential for real losses on this and other loans apart from the plumbers.
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Post by oldnick on Aug 10, 2015 15:20:48 GMT
I speak for several of the moderators when I say that the tone of this thread is not what we have come to expect from forum members. Strong emotions expressed this way will close down communications rather than improve them. I agree with you but it is also worth asking what is causing emotions to run so high? IMHO it is because AC have been excessively dilatory in the manner in which they have dealt with this loan. As I have already pointed out this is not the only defaulted loan that AC are dealing with to the acute dissatisfaction of their lenders. My guess is that for the best part of a year AC's management have had their minds elsewhere and not on the knitting. IIRC firstly we had a tie-up with a US firm, then a venture to raise capital through SEEDERS and elsewhere, and then a supposed launch into the Invoice Discounting Market followed by some form of venture with RBS. My guess is that AH and his colleagues have had their hands full in dealing with all this rather than getting on top of problems back at the shop.
So it should not come as a surprise that some lenders are becoming very impatient with the way things are being managed at AC and to add to that the potential for real losses on this and other loans apart from the plumbers.
That said, the moderators would ask that good manners prevail, even when anger is below the surface, and that personal comments are subject to self-editing before hitting the reply button. It is rather surprising that this should need reiterating to the seasoned forum contributors concerned.
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Post by chris on Aug 10, 2015 16:02:04 GMT
I speak for several of the moderators when I say that the tone of this thread is not what we have come to expect from forum members. Strong emotions expressed this way will close down communications rather than improve them. I agree with you but it is also worth asking what is causing emotions to run so high? IMHO it is because AC have been excessively dilatory in the manner in which they have dealt with this loan. As I have already pointed out this is not the only defaulted loan that AC are dealing with to the acute dissatisfaction of their lenders. My guess is that for the best part of a year AC's management have had their minds elsewhere and not on the knitting. IIRC firstly we had a tie-up with a US firm, then a venture to raise capital through SEEDERS and elsewhere, and then a supposed launch into the Invoice Discounting Market followed by some form of venture with RBS. My guess is that AH and his colleagues have had their hands full in dealing with all this rather than getting on top of problems back at the shop.
So it should not come as a surprise that some lenders are becoming very impatient with the way things are being managed at AC and to add to that the potential for real losses on this and other loans apart from the plumbers.
Your guess would be wrong though. There is an entire credit and operations team that sits aside from the work the exec have been carrying out that handle the recoveries process, however there is a process to follow. Recoveries are rarely quick, and if mistakes are made then it's possible for the lender's outcome to be worse than would have otherwise been the case. This is why we employ more than one experienced insolvency practitioner and involve our in house legal team in the process to make sure that we're doing everything by the book and as it should be. I understand the frustration this may cause lenders when they feel like they are being kept in the dark or are not in control of things but that does not change the legal process that must be followed, nor the fact that releasing the information being requested would be detrimental to the chances of full recovery, and we will never prejudice the outcome of that process just to placate a minority of lenders. If AC had a poor track record in recoveries then I would understand lenders being angry, but the opposite is true and the vast majority of messages we receive relating to recoveries and the process have been very positive. We have one of the best track records in the industry thus far and we are all working hard to keep it that way.
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gon
Member of DD Central
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Post by gon on Aug 11, 2015 7:31:25 GMT
The point I was trying to make was that the only info retail lenders have been provided with is the 4 page abridged credit report. The borrower and the security remain anonymous. No valuation report was made available. It was (and remains) close to impossible for any retail lender to do any form of independent due diligence on this loan. There was a (light weight) article in yesterdays Telegraph How do you know you're investing not gambling ? Whilst everyone will have their own line between gambling and investing, I'm firmly of the belief that investing in p2p loans on any platform without doing independent due diligence is gambling. As such my view has been that any investment by retail lenders in Anglesey was little better than a gamble, especially when the 4 months of retained interest ran out (the point at which I disposed of most of my holding). I'm more interested in trying to use past experiences such as this to improve future outcomes for all p2p lenders, and make no apologies for highlighting that AC (amongst other platforms) provide a level of detail to the underwriting community on some loans that is denied to retail lenders. When the dust settles on the FCA authorisation process for p2p platforms, it will be interesting to see whether additional guidance in this area is forthcoming. It is already clear that at least one platform is continuing to allow cherry picking of loans (or tranches thereof) by underwriters / larger investors contary to the FCA's initial guidance. I guess it would be too much to hope that AC took the decision to now release the original Anglesey valuation to current holders of the Anglesey loan.
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gon
Member of DD Central
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Post by gon on Aug 11, 2015 7:44:58 GMT
In respect of mcrlondon post above, I believe all lenders (irrespective of their status) should be provided with full information for every loan including (and very crucially) the valuation reports (redacted if necessary). After all they are prepared for and on behalf of Assetz lenders of whom "retail lenders" must be a part. Only then can everyone make truly judged decisions in which loans to invest.
Indeed, turning to the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph of your post yesterday Chris, our "relationship manager" recently told us that you (Assetz) had an internal review to understand your fiduciary obligation to treat everyone fairly and we should address our questions through the public forums to ensure transparency, which Assetz strongly aspire to.
This is exactly what we done, so look forward to Andrews full response to the points we have raised please, which will help all us investors better understand the situation.
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Post by chris on Aug 11, 2015 8:43:38 GMT
In respect of mcrlondon post above, I believe all lenders (irrespective of their status) should be provided with full information for every loan including (and very crucially) the valuation reports (redacted if necessary). After all they are prepared for and on behalf of Assetz lenders of whom "retail lenders" must be a part. Only then can everyone make truly judged decisions in which loans to invest. Indeed, turning to the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph of your post yesterday Chris, our "relationship manager" recently told us that you (Assetz) had an internal review to understand your fiduciary obligation to treat everyone fairly and we should address our questions through the public forums to ensure transparency, which Assetz strongly aspire to. This is exactly what we done, so look forward to Andrews full response to the points we have raised please, which will help all us investors better understand the situation. With regards to all lenders being provided with the full information for every loan, this is certainly something we like to follow wherever possible and indeed have been the gold standard on this since our inception. However there are a handful of loan sources that tie our hands contractually and prevent us from publishing the full information. This is always clear to lenders as you simply do not see those documents, and lenders always have the choice not to invest. If you're unhappy that some information is withheld then don't invest in those loans. If enough lenders choose not to invest because of this then loans from that source become unviable and we won't deal with them in future. I'll check exactly what was said by your relationship manager as I'd be surprised if this thread and the tone that was set was what they had in mind. We are committed to transparency and are amongst the most engaged platforms with this forum, which we wouldn't do if we weren't open. However we're not going to be able to release information via a public forum that we can't release to individual lenders when they ask. In terms of our obligations to treat everyone fairly it's important to remember that this includes the borrower, broker and valuer with whom we also have contractual relationships. As intimated Andy will cover all he can in his full response which will help clarify the situation.
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Post by chris on Aug 11, 2015 17:39:48 GMT
Just a thought but on the one hand it's said that AC is full of highly competent teams stuffed full of smart people. But on the other hand, it seems to be only Andrew who is trusted? Competent? Responsible? Enough to answer the big (where's my cash gone) questions. The second hand damages the reputation of the first surely? Unsurprisingly I disagree with the sentiment. Andrew is the director who has volunteered to collate the information from across the team and take responsibility for checking that whatever it is we release neither breaks anything legal (contractual or otherwise) nor prejudices lender's chances of full recovery. As I've already said the official position from our broad, competent and smart team is that we've already released all the information we are legally able to. Andy is checking that off and also investigating whether we can say why / how the discrepancy came about between the update to lenders regarding completion of renovations and the statement on that matter by the LPA receiver. If we could just blurt out all of the information lenders are requesting without recrimination or damage to all of our chances of recovery then we would do so. The simple truth is that this isn't the case and therefore Andy is trying to work out what we can release.
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