angrysaveruk
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Say No To T.D.S
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Post by angrysaveruk on Feb 1, 2014 18:07:26 GMT
I have started out putting money into Zopa and Rate Setter. Returns seem pretty good given the risk, and unless there is a large spike in unemployment over the next few years I dont expect to have any bad debts that are not covered by the provision funds. I have been thinking about also investing some money in Funding Circle, however I am slightly concerned about the potential default rates on small business loans. Alot of small businesses fail, and the cost of going bankrupt for a LTD company is not that great compared to defaulting on personal loans creating the risk that companies that know they are going to have financial problems applying for loans on FC. I did read about the director guarantees which would give me more confidence in lending money to an LTD however I have also read that alot of these guarantees are a bit of a waste of time. I do like the idea of lending money to small businesses but common sense is telling me it might not be a good idea, can anyone tell me of their personal experiences?
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 1, 2014 18:30:59 GMT
Although it doesn't answer your question directly, take a look at the rate comparison table on the P2P Money website making sure you set your actual tax rate correctly. FC is probably the most time consuming of the P2x sites, and only you can judge whether the return is worth the effort. For me it no longer is given the multitude of platforms in the P2x sector. Most FC loans are unsecured with a personal guarantee (which means in the cases of defaulted loans there will be some recovery of a few of them). There are also some asset backed loans, but that depends on there still being assets in the business when it folds (and many of us are still wondering where the £2m stock of womens jeans pledged as security on one notable defaulted loan went).
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Feb 1, 2014 18:37:31 GMT
I have also read that a lot of these guarantees are a bit of a waste of time. I think the phrase you are looking for is complete waste of time.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 1, 2014 19:03:01 GMT
Most FC loans are unsecured with a personal guarantee (which means in the cases of defaulted loans there will be some recovery of a few of them). with probably the emphasis very strongly on both some and few. Well judging by the fate of the business, they probably didn't manage to sell 'em. I'm not entirely sure they existed in that quantity at the time of the loan. BTW, what was the outcome of that loan ? What level of recovery (well, two loans in fact).
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Post by mrclondon on Feb 1, 2014 19:14:05 GMT
BTW, what was the outcome of that loan ? What level of recovery (well, two loans in fact). I'm just in the second loan. One recovery payment last September of just over 2%, but there is the potential for a bit more later this year when bankcrupty proceedings are completed. Next news on this one expected in April. And to put the timescale into perspective this one started going pear shaped November 2012, was a zombie for most of 2013 before formally defaulting Setember 2013.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 1, 2014 19:17:18 GMT
I was in the first loan, but sold out when the second one was listed, despite it bringing asset security in play across both loans. It was a close call decision, so that one falls into the but for the grace of..... for me. P.S. How on EARTH did England lose that match ?!?
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angrysaveruk
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Post by angrysaveruk on Feb 1, 2014 20:54:46 GMT
Thanks alot for the opinions. I think I will not put any money into FC at the moment if they are not enforcing these director guarantees. It is just too easy for the directors to declare the firm bankrupt and not to pay the money back and god knows where the money went. Thin Cats looks interesting but I am not sure I like the £1000 min loan size since I would like to diversify my loan book. I think I will stick with Zopa and Rate Setter for now.
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Feb 1, 2014 21:10:38 GMT
To angry from grumpy! I think FC may be having to tighten up on their actions regarding defaults and directors' "guarantees" following increasing public criticism, (and possibly the approach of increasing regulation). Anyway, if you are thinking of spreading some of your shekels into FC, (in my experience) they don't get everything wrong. Faults are well documented on this forum. However, keeping ahead of the "game" is time consuming, and smaller loans (especially A+ risk band) are not worth the effort for the returns on offer. (Autobid is a non-starter for me).
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Post by pepperpot on Feb 1, 2014 21:14:24 GMT
I have started out putting money into Zopa and Rate Setter. Returns seem pretty good given the risk, and unless there is a large spike in unemployment over the next few years I dont expect to have any bad debts that are not covered by the provision funds. I have been thinking about also investing some money in Funding Circle, however I am slightly concerned about the potential default rates on small business loans. Alot of small businesses fail, and the cost of going bankrupt for a LTD company is not that great compared to defaulting on personal loans creating the risk that companies that know they are going to have financial problems applying for loans on FC. I did read about the director guarantees which would give me more confidence in lending money to an LTD however I have also read that alot of these guarantees are a bit of a waste of time. I do like the idea of lending money to small businesses but common sense is telling me it might not be a good idea, can anyone tell me of their personal experiences? I would say FC IS the most time consuming website to invest through, and am looking to withdraw at some point to get my life back! I've been lending there since July '13 and so far no defaults but I'm heavily risk averse so don't hold much for long enough to give it chance to go sour on me, guess that makes me a slow s.o.d, (see glossary). This isn't really in the spirit of lending to help SME's but it's provided a home for some funds for a while. If you play the full diversification game that FC promote the returns should work out similar to the rate they also promote, something which longer standing investors might divulge in more detail. But taking the headline rates of say FC and RS, I would be bold enough to say RS is a wiser choice when you weigh up the time involved and tax implications of defaults. Biggest advice? - your already doing it - welcome to the forum!!! P.S. shhh, don't forget to check out Assetz Capital
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 1, 2014 21:31:59 GMT
Mr Angry: are u a non-taxpayer, a 20%, 40% or 45% taxpayer ? NO need to answer that question in public obviously, however its something you should take into account.
In FCs favour: given the quanitity of loans available its a good place to build up a diversified loan book quickly. If you a non-taxpayer or 20%, then I would say it is not a bad place to put SOME of your cash into. Build a loan book relatively quickly with sufficient spread of exposure, do your best to weed out what you think may be the worst bets. I suspect you could then reasonably expect to get a similar or better return than you would in a bank or probalby with Zopa (and Rate Setter) .... ? IMHO.
On the other hand if you are 40 or 45% taxpayer, think very carefully about it, and think carefully about your lending strategy.
Also to consider is your own 'attitude': if you are likely to get upset/stressed any time an individual loan goes bad, then you are likely to be better off not using FC.
BTW, if FC concerns you, I'd be think very carefully before using the likes of TC. The volume of loans available is signficicantly less and of course the minimum bid size of £1k: combined this makes it difficult to build up a diversified portfolio quickly. While their loans generally have some level of asset security, the value of that security is always going to be questionable when push comes to shove.
First and foremost always ask yourself the question: am I going ot have any problems sleeping at night ? .e.g, if I hold say 10 loans accumulated over several months with TC, will I be able to rest comfortably with the threat that any one of those, and several, could turn bad with risk of losing several £k.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Feb 1, 2014 22:33:29 GMT
I like FC as am amusing hobby .. for serious sums invested, no probably not - Ratesetter is less work (lots less) for similar reward. ZOPA used to be Ok but they have succeeded in screwing it up IMO with the removal of any rate control from the lender (which they now call 'savers' iirc). If you have time, and money, you can play with FC for a few months with fairly minimal risk (a few hundred quid goes a long way, and can involve you in many hours a week), but if you just want something easy, hmm, maybe a unit trust or similar.
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merlin
Minor shareholder in Assetz and many other companies.
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Post by merlin on Feb 1, 2014 23:18:17 GMT
For what it is worth I agree with most of the sentiments expressed by posters on this thread. However, you did ask specifically about investing in FC and I have a couple of further comments to make. First is regulation by the FCA of the whole P2P business which is due to come into effect in a couple of months time and no one is quite sure what impact this will have on this market. Second is the subject of communication with FC and perusal of past posts on here will leave you in no doubt about the very poor way FC have treated investors in the past. Finally loan defaults are a continual source of pain to most people investing in FC and frankly my personal experience of "personal guarantees" usually are not worth the paper that they are written on.
Until a short while ago I had a five figure sum invested in FC but have now reduced this to a small four figure sum. After a fair amount of research I have moved some of this money to Assetz Capital (AC) as their loans usually have far better security and are backed by charges on buildings, tangible assets etc.
Good luck with your search.
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Post by valerieb on Feb 1, 2014 23:52:07 GMT
I have been investing on a small scale with FC for just over 15 months and from the financial point of view, my experience so far has been very positive; only one bad debt to date from loans to about 200 companies. However, it's still comparatively early days in the life of many of my loans and I'm not expecting my good fortune to continue. I agree that FC is time-consuming, much more so than the other sites I use (Assetz and Thin Cats) but it has the advantage of a good supply of loans and fairly speedy drawdowns so that cash isn't idle for too long. It's quick and not too costly to build up a well-diversified portfolio. FC has also been a diverting and quite educational hobby; I have learnt so much about due diligence from reading the posts from the main contributors on this and the official FC forum. There are certainly negative aspects with FC, my main concerns being the lack of communication when payments are late or missed completely, the fear that FC are ineffective in chasing debtors, and recent eccentricities with the website. However, if one takes time to assess the loans, doesn't use auto bid, and spreads funds thinly, I think a good return is possible.
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Post by bracknellboy on Feb 2, 2014 8:06:14 GMT
....I agree that FC is time-consuming, much more so than the other sites I use (Assetz and Thin Cats)....negative aspects with FC..recent eccentricities with the website. .... I never expected to see that kind of comment in my lifetime...FC website /IT being positioned in a -ve light, contextually in the same para as mentions Thin Cats. I think I need an aspirin.
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Post by valerieb on Feb 2, 2014 9:10:20 GMT
....I agree that FC is time-consuming, much more so than the other sites I use (Assetz and Thin Cats)....negative aspects with FC..recent eccentricities with the website. .... I never expected to see that kind of comment in my lifetime...FC website /IT being positioned in a -ve light, contextually in the same para as mentions Thin Cats. I think I need an aspirin. I take your point! I find TC very, very slow but it doesn't tell me that my bid at 10.9% has been knocked out whilst some bids at 11.1% are still live. I like TC's dynamic bidding which means you don't have to log on so frequently, so you don't get irritated with the site so frequently.........
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