|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 25, 2015 19:13:31 GMT
The 4% statement etc. is interesting: on the total balance or only the repayment deficit ? DR said on one thread (i guess it must have been on a salmon coloured one) that it would only apply to the deficit not the total loan. That was a significant influence in my response to the vote.
|
|
|
|
112 vote
Sept 25, 2015 19:25:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by andrewholgate on Sept 25, 2015 19:25:58 GMT
I staggered. I really am.
If someone wants my job, please come and take it as it seems nigh on 20 years of lending experience and 5 years of being an accountant count for nothing. Sorry that is petulant.
For absolute clarity, we have treated lenders and borrower fairly. We have acted with the T&cs for lenders by notifying you of the request and setting options out to you. Above was taken in accordance with the T&cs and a decision made.
We have also treated the borrower fairly by putting their request to you for your review. By accepting the variation on a repayment the loan is not in default. Clause 26 in our loan agreement covers this. We cannot charge them more interest. They are already penalised as they will pay more interest on the outstanding capital they haven't repaid at the prevailing rate of the loan. They are not getting it for free. It is not 0% loan extension.
In terms of what the banks charge they don't think "oh we'll slap a £15 charge on this" it's set out in the terms of your account. You are forewarned of those charges.
You do have another option if you don't like the loan, you can exit it on the marketplace. We do not force you to hold the loan.
If anyone feels we have acted in appropriately then please put a formal complaint to complaints@assetzcapital.co.uk
I am not commenting further about this on the forum.
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563 
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Sept 25, 2015 19:42:02 GMT
The 4% statement etc. is interesting: on the total balance or only the repayment deficit ? DR said on one thread (i guess it must have been on a salmon coloured one) that it would only apply to the deficit not the total loan. That was a significant influence in my response to the vote. On the unpaid amount, until it was made good. So a few hundred quid more or less. If I were the borrower I would feel I'd have got off lightly.
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Sept 25, 2015 19:51:58 GMT
...In terms of what the banks charge they don't think "oh we'll slap a £15 charge on this" it's set out in the terms of your account. You are forewarned of those charges. ... If anyone feels we have acted in appropriately then please put a formal complaint to complaints@assetzcapital.co.uk EXACTLY - the default interest was clearly set out in the terms of the loan, the borrower was clearly forewarned. But AC chose not to explain to lenders that we would be waiving that right (for no good reason) by following their proposed course of action Complain duly entered.
|
|
sqh
Member of DD Central
Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 1,212
|
Post by sqh on Sept 25, 2015 20:11:47 GMT
...In terms of what the banks charge they don't think "oh we'll slap a £15 charge on this" it's set out in the terms of your account. You are forewarned of those charges. ... If anyone feels we have acted in appropriately then please put a formal complaint to complaints@assetzcapital.co.uk EXACTLY - the default interest was clearly set out in the terms of the loan, the borrower was clearly forewarned. But AC chose not to explain to lenders that we would be waiving that right (for no good reason) by following their proposed course of action Complain duly entered. Hold on, we did get to vote and the outcome was fairly emphatic, despite the fervour of the thread on the pink pages. I can't see any justification for formal complaints. A similar situation occurred on loan #82 and we didn't get to vote. Nobody complained AFAIK.
|
|
|
|
112 vote
Sept 25, 2015 20:23:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by andrewholgate on Sept 25, 2015 20:23:57 GMT
...In terms of what the banks charge they don't think "oh we'll slap a £15 charge on this" it's set out in the terms of your account. You are forewarned of those charges. ... If anyone feels we have acted in appropriately then please put a formal complaint to complaints@assetzcapital.co.uk EXACTLY - the default interest was clearly set out in the terms of the loan, the borrower was clearly forewarned. But AC chose not to explain to lenders that we would be waiving that right (for no good reason) by following their proposed course of action Complain duly entered. I said wouldn't respond but I will on this point. The loan in NOT in default. Lenders chose to vary the agreement as requested by the borrower as per Clause 26 of the loan agreement. That is not an event of default. You can argue that all you want but as I wrote (with our lawyers) the loan documentation, I know them inside out. We also have an in house legal counsel to advise us on the position. If they missed the payment without consent then that is a default. However lenders HAVE (by voting) consented and it is NOT a default. Take that to the Ombudsman or the Courts and you would be laughed out if you claimed it was a default. You simply cannot charge default interest when there is no default. I repeat again, I have almost 20 years under my belt including working in default management. I know these things inside out and upside down. I will deal with the complaint when I am back in the office and I will explain it to you in precise detail.
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Sept 25, 2015 21:07:09 GMT
It actually was in default while the vote was being taken, even if it isn't now
The precise words of the agreement are (sorry but you force me to it)
If the Borrower fails to make any payment due under this Agreement on the due date for payment ..
then interest on the unpaid amount shall accrue daily at the Default Rate, from the date of non-payment ... to the date of actual payment...
Lenders were not informed of their right to be paid default interest, and in my view there was no good reason not to claim default interest as above, whilst sensibly agreeing to a delay.
I am hoping that Assetz will tell us that from now on default interest on any loan will automatically be charged as per the agreement, that you will never waive default interest again without expressly asking lenders, and only in circumstances where the whole loan is jeopardised without some compromise (or where the borrower has a good case to plead innocence). Any problem with that?
|
|
|
|
112 vote
Sept 25, 2015 21:22:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by andrewholgate on Sept 25, 2015 21:22:40 GMT
I know what the loan agreements say, but you are ignoring Clause 26. Under clause 26, the borrower had asked for a variation. This was being considered by the lenders before and at the time of the payment being missed and as such default interest wasn't charged. Lenders voted to vary, so there is no and has been no Default because the lenders chose that option.
If lenders had rejected the proposition then default interest would accrue.
I know the legal position of the documentation as I have dealt with hundreds of these in my time. While the lenders are considering the variation AT THE REQUEST OF THE BORROWER WHICH WAS MADE BEFORE THE PAYMENT WAS MISSED, then there is no default and we cannot charge default interest. The fact that the payment was missed is overridden by the request to vary coming before the payment being missed. Only at rejecting the variation would it apply to the point the payment was missed.
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Sept 25, 2015 22:18:41 GMT
But why didn't you alert lenders to the fact that they could reasonably ask for default interest to be paid while the payment was overdue, why did you not include it in the proposition? If this wasn't an appropriate circumstance I don't know what is.
|
|
pikestaff
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,187
Likes: 1,546
|
Post by pikestaff on Sept 25, 2015 22:26:27 GMT
I know the legal position of the documentation as I have dealt with hundreds of these in my time. While the lenders are considering the variation AT THE REQUEST OF THE BORROWER WHICH WAS MADE BEFORE THE PAYMENT WAS MISSED, then there is no default and we cannot charge default interest. The fact that the payment was missed is overridden by the request to vary coming before the payment being missed. Only at rejecting the variation would it apply to the point the payment was missed. Which is what I tried to explain in my last post. From a lender perspective I think the real issues are: - Should this have been better explained in the request for a vote? Yes, absolutely. (Along the lines of if you vote no then, until the the default is cured or new terms are agreed, you will be entitled to default interest but the loan will not be tradeable; if you vote yes the loan will be tradeable but you will not be entitled to default interest.)
- Is this what we should have been asked to vote on? Arguably not. I think we should have been offered something for our forbearance.
Compared to some others on here, I'm quite relaxed about this but I do think it might have been done better.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 26, 2015 1:21:37 GMT
You do have another option if you don't like the loan, you can exit it on the marketplace. We do not force you to hold the loan. From a lender perspective I think the real issues are: - Should this have been better explained in the request for a vote? Yes, absolutely. (Along the lines of if you vote no then, until the the default is cured or new terms are agreed, you will be entitled to default interest but the loan will not be tradeable; if you vote yes the loan will be tradeable but you will not be entitled to default interest.)
According to andrewholgate, we can exit this loan if we wish to. And Friday morning's email announcing the result of the vote stated "Given the vote has been concluded and the results announced the trading suspension currently on this loan will now be lifted."
I have entered a sell order for some of my holding. The website reports that there are some parts available -- about £1k worth. However, despite there being no suggestion on the web page that trading still is halted, I don't get the feeling that trading actually has been re-enabled, especially as the amount available for sale has been static for hours. Has anyone here actually managed to sell or buy any parts since the vote result was announced? Is this loan still caught up in the same bug that's preventing Aftermarket sales of loans with any monitoring events? chris: Are AC still waiting for IT to make the changes needed to allow AM sales to resume? Or are these sales not happening for other reasons?
|
|
iren
Member of DD Central
Posts: 302
Likes: 300
|
Post by iren on Sept 26, 2015 1:40:58 GMT
You do have another option if you don't like the loan, you can exit it on the marketplace. We do not force you to hold the loan. From a lender perspective I think the real issues are: - Should this have been better explained in the request for a vote? Yes, absolutely. (Along the lines of if you vote no then, until the the default is cured or new terms are agreed, you will be entitled to default interest but the loan will not be tradeable; if you vote yes the loan will be tradeable but you will not be entitled to default interest.)
According to andrewholgate, we can exit this loan if we wish to. And Friday morning's email announcing the result of the vote stated "Given the vote has been concluded and the results announced the trading suspension currently on this loan will now be lifted."
I have entered a sell order for some of my holding. The website reports that there are some parts available -- about £1k worth. However, despite there being no suggestion on the web page that trading still is halted, I don't get the feeling that trading actually has been re-enabled, especially as the amount available for sale has been static for hours. Has anyone here actually managed to sell or buy any parts since the vote result was announced? Is this loan still caught up in the same bug that's preventing Aftermarket sales of loans with any monitoring events? chris: Are AC still waiting for IT to make the changes needed to allow AM sales to resume? Or are these sales not happening for other reasons? Either trading has not been reenabled or there is a separate glitch preventing it. I have an order in to buy, but nothing happening although units show as available.
|
|
|
|
Post by chris on Sept 26, 2015 7:16:05 GMT
You do have another option if you don't like the loan, you can exit it on the marketplace. We do not force you to hold the loan. From a lender perspective I think the real issues are: - Should this have been better explained in the request for a vote? Yes, absolutely. (Along the lines of if you vote no then, until the the default is cured or new terms are agreed, you will be entitled to default interest but the loan will not be tradeable; if you vote yes the loan will be tradeable but you will not be entitled to default interest.)
According to andrewholgate, we can exit this loan if we wish to. And Friday morning's email announcing the result of the vote stated "Given the vote has been concluded and the results announced the trading suspension currently on this loan will now be lifted."
I have entered a sell order for some of my holding. The website reports that there are some parts available -- about £1k worth. However, despite there being no suggestion on the web page that trading still is halted, I don't get the feeling that trading actually has been re-enabled, especially as the amount available for sale has been static for hours. Has anyone here actually managed to sell or buy any parts since the vote result was announced? Is this loan still caught up in the same bug that's preventing Aftermarket sales of loans with any monitoring events? chris: Are AC still waiting for IT to make the changes needed to allow AM sales to resume? Or are these sales not happening for other reasons? There's no technical reason that the loan is not tradable. It still has a status of "temporary suspension" so simply changing that back to aftermarket enabled will allow trading to begin. The only loans that are suspended that shouldn't be are those with a status of "monitoring event". A solution for that has been coded, with changes to the back office workflow so it's not a simple quick fix, and is on our test server pending final testing and sign off next Monday / Tuesday. We're likely to feel it necessary to then email all lenders with instructions in those loans with, say, 48 hours notice before trading recommences so that people get a chance to review their settings. The main reason for that is that a lot of lenders currently have active instructions that should have been paused when the new system was installed, so I need to pause those instructions and give lenders a chance to review them. Again that's coded but needs double checking on Monday before I can apply it.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Sept 26, 2015 14:45:54 GMT
There's no technical reason that the loan is not tradable. It still has a status of "temporary suspension" so simply changing that back to aftermarket enabled will allow trading to begin. An AC/human error meant this loan wasn't suspended from trading at the time the email announcing the vote went out -- despite the email saying it would be. AC should have been embarrassed by that glitch, but AFAIK have never suggested anything would be done to unwind the sales that shouldn't have happened but did. A week later, however, it doesn't look as if AC have learned anything from their previous mistake because they've done it again by sending out an email announcing the result of the vote and saying that the trading suspension would be lifted but have failed again to press the right button. Did the person who sent the email not liaise adequately with the person with the authority to push the button? chris: You/AC have created a system with a myriad of options and controls, but it appears that the people* using it still don't understand how to use them. More training is required! * And I don't just mean AC people, as users still seem to be having difficulty as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by chris on Sept 28, 2015 8:02:45 GMT
The aftermarket on this loan has been unstuck and I've watched a load of trades go through.
|
|
