|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 16:53:59 GMT
Yes I suppose we could, although it might muddy the waters. Let's stick to capital losses for the time being. Besides, in a "perfect storm" they could all go down like ninepins! That's why you should probably introduce some correlation in your model. Assuming all loan default probabilities are independent is just too unrealistic. You could assume for simplicity sake the same correlation for all loans. What exactly do you suggest?
|
|
|
Post by robberbaron on Sept 18, 2015 17:06:10 GMT
What exactly do you suggest? I would use the standard joint probability of default of 2 loans A and B: P(AB)=P(A)*P(B)*corr(AB)*sqrt(P(A)*(1-P(A))*P(B)(1-P(B)))
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 17:29:30 GMT
What exactly do you suggest? I would use the standard joint probability of default of 2 loans A and B: P(AB)=P(A)*P(B)*corr(AB)*sqrt(P(A)*(1-P(A))*P(B)(1-P(B))) I'll have to dust off my old stats books...
|
|
|
Post by marek63 on Sept 18, 2015 17:49:08 GMT
PS excellent model and thread. Any chance you could look at AC loans too? ?? Gulp. Do I have to? I voted with my feet when it came to AC, without bothering to create a model... A proper scrutiny of the "LTV"s was enough for me. Or happy to do the data entry on my own portfolio which is a pretty limited subset of AC (10 loans), if you feel like sharing the model or PMing it?? The AC WT loans are fine IMHO and a couple of the others. But the rest, ummm yep, I think SS moves more quickly and gets (so far) a better borrower quality in bridging loans as a result of direct sourcing and the lending partners being directly involved.
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 18:07:57 GMT
Gulp. Do I have to? I voted with my feet when it came to AC, without bothering to create a model... A proper scrutiny of the "LTV"s was enough for me. Or happy to do the data entry on my own portfolio which is a pretty limited subset of AC (10 loans), if you feel like sharing the model or PMing it?? The AC WT loans are fine IMHO and a couple of the others. But the rest, ummm yep, I think SS moves more quickly and gets (so far) a better borrower quality in bridging loans as a result of direct sourcing and the lending partners being directly involved. I'll put it on the to-do list, once we have refined the model for SS. AC has too many whacky 2nd charges and combinations of charges for me to contemplate it just yet. I still have significant funds there, tied up in zombie loans, so I'll get round to it eventually...
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 19:22:48 GMT
I'm not sure I understand how you are deriving these numbers. These loss estimates are far lower than I derive from my models. In the case where the default probability D = 20%/annum and the loss given default L = 40% (so a recovery of 60%), I don't see how you obtain the result that the loss on the portfolio is so small. Unless L isn't the loss given default ... or is L how much you are tweaking the LTV (i.e on a 70% LTV loan, a 40% L, leads to only a 10% loss)? Yes, as I said in the beginning I am basing L on loss of value of the asset . (I don't see the point of just subtracting L from LTV, when they are all different) So my basic loss formula is (1 - ((1-L%)/LTV%)) x loan value, or 14.29% in your example. edit: another factor which may account for the lower figures. A significant number of loans do seem bullet-proof against losses, Superyacht LTV 15%, PBL033 LTV 36% etc. The model obviously ascribes the same probability of default to these as any other, but their actual loss is zero even for very high L%. Since the MC Model is simulating the average loss across the entire loanbook, these loans make quite an impact in mitigating overall losses.
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 19:38:21 GMT
An interesting graph of D=100% Losses begin when L% > 33.75% Max loss of 98% when L=100% 5/4/16: graph updated downthread
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 18, 2015 20:25:21 GMT
Yes, as I said in the beginning I am basing L on loss of value of the asset .So my basic loss formula is (1 - ((1-L%)/LTV%)) x loan value, or 14.29% in your example. Sorry I'm old fashioned and just tend to think in terms of PV(recovery). If you are wanting to consider worst-case scenarios, then your loss on default numbers could be on the optimistic side. For US sub-investment grade corporates, senior secured bank loans (sub 70% LTV) recovered at around 80% over the past 20 years. Senior secured loans and bonds (sub-70% LTV) recovered at around 65% during the same period. The standard deviation for the secured bonds/loans is around 22% but that hides a fairly large skew. Anything that is mezz or junior is obviously below those numbers. Clearly, these are US, rather than UK, numbers and for corporates of a much higher quality than the typical SME (so they have a lower default probability but not necessarily a higher recovery rate). In terms of default probabilities, the worse case scenarios are obviously found during credit crunches. During the last crisis, European single B corporates (typical high-yield bond) hit default rates of around 13-14%. I tend to think SMEs, with much weaker balance sheets and poorly diversified revenue streams, would be higher than that but it's pretty speculative how much. Something like 20-25% hardly seems unreasonable for a stress loss scenario. OK, hit me with a D and L. Anyone know what the largest ever 12 month drop in house prices was? Could be useful... edit: doing a bit of digging, it looks like around 20% in December 2008 So maybe we could go for twice that, or even better let L% be drawn from the normal distribution N(40%, 10%) ?
|
|
nick
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,056
Likes: 825
|
Post by nick on Sept 19, 2015 14:08:01 GMT
For the purposes of stress testing: D = 25% L = 20%
I believe the biggest risks are market systematic ones, eg interest rate rises, sharp economic downturn etc. Bridging loans are particularly sensitive due to refinancing risk, hence banks and the general market charging typically 2-3 times the rate on a capital repayment mortgage as the likelihood of default is much higher.
I have tried think about a typical stress scenario, eg:
-small/medium shock results in banks and other lenders tightening credit terms on mortgages -borrowers are unable to refinance due tightening of credit market and/or slowdown in house market prevents sale of property in required timeline leading to default -expect some haircut to realised value on security due slowing housing market and urgent marketing - typical time from declaration of default to sale of security - 6-12 months maybe more if there are possession issues.
On reflection, D should probably be higher than 20% for a stress test scenario.
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 19, 2015 14:16:56 GMT
For the purposes of stress testing: D = 25% L = 20% I believe the biggest risks are market systematic ones, eg interest rate rises, sharp economic downturn etc. Bridging loans are particularly sensitive due to refinancing risk, hence banks and the general market charging typically 2-3 times the rate on a capital repayment mortgage as the likelihood of default is much higher. I have tried think about a typical stress scenario, eg: -small/medium shock results in banks and other lenders tightening credit terms on mortgages -borrowers are unable to refinance due tightening of credit market and/or slowdown in house market prevents sale of property in required timeline leading to default -expect some haircut to realised value on security due slowing housing market and urgent marketing - typical time from declaration of default to sale of security - 6-12 months maybe more if there are possession issues. On reflection, D should probably be higher than 20% for a stress test scenario. As discussed previously, any uniform L% less than ~33.7% results in no losses, even if every loan defaults! I have defined L% as the loss of value of the security.
|
|
Liz
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 1,297
|
Post by Liz on Sept 19, 2015 14:32:27 GMT
Have we tried 50 for both?
|
|
jo
Member of DD Central
dead
Posts: 741
Likes: 498
|
Post by jo on Sept 19, 2015 14:39:33 GMT
Not a statistician but is there any argument for including an input(s) for the fact that P(B)2B platforms are not 'too big to fail' and therefore unlikely to be bailed-out in a 2008 scenario repeat.
I'm particularly interested in the effect this would have on time-to-recovery.
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 19, 2015 14:52:23 GMT
Have we tried 50 for both? for D=50%, L=50% (uniform), Model says: Chance of any loss 100.00%, no loss 0.00% loss <0.5% 0.02% loss >0.5% 99.98% loss >1% 99.84% loss >2% 99.28% loss >3% 96.98% loss >5% 81.40% loss >10% 7.93% loss >20% 0.00% loss >30% 0.00% loss >40% 0.00% loss >50% 0.00% overall loss 6.96%, including times when there's no loss average loss 6.96%, if there is a loss Comparison with when there's no PF Chance of any loss 100.00%, no loss 0.00% loss <0.5% 0.00% loss >0.5% 100.00% loss >1% 100.00% loss >2% 100.00% loss >3% 99.84% loss >5% 96.98% loss >10% 31.82% loss >20% 0.00% loss >30% 0.00% loss >40% 0.00% loss >50% 0.00% overall loss 8.96%, including times when there's no loss average loss 8.96%, if there is a loss
|
|
|
Post by solicitorious on Sept 19, 2015 15:28:26 GMT
Not a statistician but is there any argument for including an input(s) for the fact that P(B)2B platforms are not 'too big to fail' and therefore unlikely to be bailed-out in a 2008 scenario repeat. I'm particularly interested in the effect this would have on time-to-recovery. A bit outside of the current domain of the model. One thing we might think about is the fact the Provision Fund is discretionary. The model assumes it would be fully applied to exhaustion to cover all losses. SS might decide to cover only a proportion, or to only cover losses such that the PF doesn't fall below a certain value. That is why I display output for both (full) PF and no PF....
|
|
Liz
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 1,297
|
Post by Liz on Sept 19, 2015 15:31:29 GMT
Only 7%, I'm surprised, I bet most have already made more than 7% in interest to date. Although your recoveries could take years to materialise and a lot of opportunity cost.
|
|