Balder
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Post by Balder on Jul 18, 2018 8:15:29 GMT
ablrate why is it that I created a bid that was at the top of the queue (some was also executed) then this morning I am now second in the queue behind another bid at the same bid price? Someone will have amended their existing (earlier) bid to match / beat yours Ok, thanks - I am now better educated
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Post by marcusponds on Aug 5, 2018 10:45:56 GMT
I'm an existing and fairly significant (=overexposed!) MT investor thinking of moving funds to Abirate, due to MT's barrage of defaultng loans, constipated secondary market and bone-dry pipeline. i have registered with Abirate and poked around. I would appreciate any advice from forum members about investing in what looks like a more healthy Abirate secondary market which would appear to offer significant diversity, which i definitely need.
The secondary market pricing approach is more sophisticated than MT but as far as I can see, if I pay 101% for a piece of a 12% loan, I'm effectively losing one month's interest versus paying at par, (I could live with that) is that correct?
What is people's experience of the default rate here compared to MT?
Abirate also seem quite good at engaging on this forum, at which which MT used to be excellent, but have slipped in recent months.
Any advice gratefully received, thank you, (Happy to reciprocate with info/views on MT for any folk interested in going the other way)
Marcus
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Aug 5, 2018 11:05:02 GMT
Yes, you understand the SM just fine .. 101% purchase means lose a month's interest (assuming a 12% loan). You can see what is popular and what is not by the pricing. AFAIK there have been two defaults on ABL so far - one was 100% recovered by sale of the assets, the other is in court, since the borrower .. ahem .. 'appears to have misbehaved' (no more can be said unless you hold that loan).
SM Prices do rise/fall regularly .. right now they are high (some repayments and a slow summer pipeline). A few months ago there were lots of loans at Par or better. You can always make a bid to buy at whatever price you like (bearing in mind that'll tie up the capital you bid) and sit back and see if anyone wants to sell.
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Post by marcusponds on Aug 5, 2018 11:15:49 GMT
Yes, you understand the SM just fine .. 101% purchase means lose a month's interest (assuming a 12% loan). You can see what is popular and what is not by the pricing. AFAIK there have been two defaults on ABL so far - one was 100% recovered by sale of the assets, the other is in court, since the borrower .. ahem .. 'appears to have misbehaved' (no more can be said unless you hold that loan).
SM Prices do rise/fall regularly .. right now they are high (some repayments and a slow summer pipeline). A few months ago there were lots of loans at Par or better. You can always make a bid to buy at whatever price you like (bearing in mind that'll tie up the capital you bid) and sit back and see if anyone wants to sell.
Many thanks GSV3MIaC
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blender
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Post by blender on Aug 5, 2018 11:38:24 GMT
GSV is absolutely right, but there are a few more things. Be careful about paying a premium, because loans can be repaid early, in which case the AER you see may not be what you get. The overall interest rates are high here and it is quite common for a successful borrower to wish to refinance asap. Check the minimum guaranteed interest period as well as the term. Also it is best to buy just after the repayment has been made, so that you do not have to buy too much accrued interest. By some quirk this is not subtracted from the interest earned figure, and the tax report.
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Aug 5, 2018 12:10:12 GMT
Re defaults, was there a plane that was grounded (which redeemed) and a company has just been taken off abl’s books for administration (although it had a 5M interco bal with a company that continues to provide guarantees to a few loans on abl - sold for a pound). That gives a flavour of the potential risk despite the talk on here about a competence/standards’ differential.
Make sure you check the security has been registered, there’s a history of a few being ‘missed’ and, I believe, there is still at least one more without it (you’d be surprised how hard it is to get an answer).
When you look at diversity of asset, make sure you’re comfortable with the recovery valuation of, say, a bespoke flat-pack building, in situ plant or gas generators that at 1% cost of capital difference would double your LTV from the sales brochure (and that coc would still be far below what abl are charging).
When you consider diversification of borrowers, you need to look at directors as well as the different companies (and even their accountants); the gene pool - and the concomitant risk of contagion - is quite incestuous.
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Post by ladywhitenap on Aug 5, 2018 12:34:03 GMT
Please forgive me if this is a daft question but.....
I looked at he SM for a particular loan and the highest bid was for £94 at 100.6%. So as an experiment, I set up an offer of £100 at 100.5% and within a minute my offer had been purchased. Fine. However, the bid for £94 @ 100.6 is still at the top on the bid list.
Is this just latency in the ABL webite/system or might it have been a fastest finger first snatch by another passing purchaser?
This was an exercise on my part to see how I might try and use the SM to transfer between standard and IFISA holdings without getting up at 4am to miss the FFF brigade.
LW
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elliotn
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Post by elliotn on Aug 5, 2018 12:41:36 GMT
Please forgive me if this is a daft question but..... I looked at he SM for a particular loan and the highest bid was for £94 at 100.6%. So as an experiment, I set up an offer of £100 at 100.5% and within a minute my offer had been purchased. Fine. However, the bid for £94 @ 100.5 is still at the top on the bid list. Is this just latency in the ABL webite/system or might it have been a fastest finger first snatch by another passing purchaser? This was an exercise on my part to see how I might try and use the SM to transfer between standard and IFISA holdings without getting up at 4am to miss the FFF brigade. LW Tax avoidance is never easy!
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Post by ladywhitenap on Aug 5, 2018 12:49:15 GMT
True! But my main query was why was the existing bid was not taken up by my offer of 100.5% being below the bid set at 100.6%?
LW
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Aug 5, 2018 14:20:37 GMT
There is no automatching (there should be) .. if you want to sell, select sell, (ditto buy) .. just putting in an appropriate bid/offer will not get it matched with what is already out there. This is a loophole which HMRC might regard as 'not open market' one day.
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blender
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Post by blender on Aug 5, 2018 15:36:03 GMT
Re defaults, was there a plane that was grounded (which redeemed) and a company has just been taken off abl’s books for administration (although it had a 5M interco bal with a company that continues to provide guarantees to a few loans on abl - sold for a pound). That gives a flavour of the potential risk despite the talk on here about a competence/standards’ differential. Make sure you check the security has been registered, there’s a history of a few being ‘missed’ and, I believe, there is still at least one more without it (you’d be surprised how hard it is to get an answer). When you look at diversity of asset, make sure you’re comfortable with the recovery valuation of, say, a bespoke flat-pack building, in situ plant or gas generators that at 1% cost of capital difference would double your LTV from the sales brochure (and that coc would still be far below what abl are charging). When you consider diversification of borrowers, you need to look at directors as well as the different companies (and even their accountants); the gene pool - and the concomitant risk of contagion - is quite incestuous. These are very good points. There are some posts on DD central which are worth reading on the interconnectedness of companies and directors. A number of the loans are to intermediaries, or groups of connected intermediaries, secured against assets belonging to other companies which have a separate borrowing relationship with the intermediaries, often with common directors/shareholders. The co in administration was not an Ablrate borrower, but held assets securing a loan to an intermediary, which loan was repaid early, before the administration. The co in administration is also a wholly owned subsidiary of another co which received other Ablrate loans, as well as having larger crowdfunding loans. It seems to me that the Ablrate loans are structured to tap into the strength of these interconnected companies and individuals, and lenders have been shielded from bad news. However, if that strength becomes an over-geared weakness, it will be very messy. I prefer to go for the loans which are secured on physical assets which have current value, and where Ablrate Assets has a direct charge. Only three loans have defaulted, so far, but we are only up to loan 110.
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Post by ladywhitenap on Aug 5, 2018 15:58:02 GMT
There is no automatching (there should be) .. if you want to sell, select sell, (ditto buy) .. just putting in an appropriate bid/offer will not get it matched with what is already out there. This is a loophole which HMRC might regard as 'not open market' one day. Thanks very much for the explanation - seems strange there is no automatching but could be useful at times lol LW
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pom
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Post by pom on Aug 6, 2018 9:07:04 GMT
I'm an existing and fairly significant (=overexposed!) MT investor thinking of moving funds to Abirate, Depending on what you define as "fairly significant" do make sure you check out the tax situation. If you're already reporting for CGT then you'll have to make manual calculations for ABL as well since currently they only report on income, and it's not just if you sell a loan since all the loans have instant returns (=discount) and any amortising loan effectively has 12 disposals a year before you do anything else at all. If you're not already reporting for CGT then depending on "fairly significant" you may well find you need to start reporting for CGT even if you have none to pay especially if as has happened to me this last tax year a lot of loans repaid when I was also rebalancing after opening an ISA account - turns out my disposals for 17-18 actually exceed my current loan total in my regular account! Which is probably not what anyone might expect. So lots of spreadsheeting required but in the end my actual capital gains (from ABL) were tiny. www.ablrate.com/faq/what-is-the-tax-position/
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blender
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Post by blender on Aug 17, 2018 13:46:39 GMT
Friday pm and demand on the SM is so high that I am constantly being tempted to sell, at a premium, loans which I would rather hold longer for some more interest. I don't know whether to complain about this, or to say thank you. Any advice?
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Aug 17, 2018 14:30:28 GMT
I’ve been selling at some ludicrous premiums in recent days.
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