agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 16, 2015 17:15:43 GMT
I see from the latest lender updates that the borrower associated with the unhappiest loans on the forum (you know who I mean, all 5 of them) is in discussion with AC about borrowing even more money.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 16, 2015 19:34:00 GMT
... Whilst the other loan (trade export) the AC crowd has never taken to for some reason ... I'm not sure why the AC crowd has not taken to the loan ... I'm obviously not sure either, because that info isn't public, but I know why I didn't/don't like them. These are non-amortising 10% loans with a LTV of 74.1%. The security consists of debentures from the borrower over debtors, stock, and 'other business assets'. (There's also a PG, but it's limited to just 2.5% of the amount borrowed, so I don't consider that to provide much security.) The problem I have with those is that they may be degraded severely if the company gets into difficulty. (Look what happened to the plumber!) And those who have been at AC long enough know that there was a London retailer who took a £1M loan at 9% secured with 'designer' stock and debtors and PGs. Not to mention that the prior charges on those assets were 68% LTV. The LTV was 80% with the £1M AC loan. The underwriters were stuck with a lot of that loan for the year before it was repaid.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 16, 2015 19:41:01 GMT
I see from the latest lender updates that the borrower associated with the unhappiest loans on the forum (you know who I mean, all 5 of them) is in discussion with AC about borrowing even more money. If that reaches an advanced stage, it will be interesting to see how much support it gets from AC's underwriters, who seem to be still holding an awful large percentage of the loan parts about 8-15 months into these 24-month loans
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tonyr
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Post by tonyr on Oct 16, 2015 19:52:08 GMT
I see from the latest lender updates that the borrower associated with the unhappiest loans on the forum (you know who I mean, all 5 of them) is in discussion with AC about borrowing even more money. Now is that because the business is going really well so they want to expand or because they'll fold if they have to repay the first big loan? I have no idea, but I exited my position at 1% discount so that I don't have to care.
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am
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Post by am on Oct 16, 2015 20:18:53 GMT
I see from the latest lender updates that the borrower associated with the unhappiest loans on the forum (you know who I mean, all 5 of them) is in discussion with AC about borrowing even more money. Now is that because the business is going really well so they want to expand or because they'll fold if they have to repay the first big loan? I have no idea, but I exited my position at 1% discount so that I don't have to care. Possibly both. As a non-amortising loan providing working capital for their business the intention may always have been to refinance on maturity.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 16, 2015 20:20:23 GMT
... or because they'll fold if they have to repay the first big loan? That's the main reason I don't particularly like non-amortising loans.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Oct 16, 2015 22:28:32 GMT
I'm not sure why the AC crowd has not taken to the loan ... I'm obviously not sure either, because that info isn't public, but I know why I didn't/don't like them. These are non-amortising 10% loans with a LTV of 74.1%. The security consists of debentures from the borrower over debtors, stock, and 'other business assets'. (There's also a PG, but it's limited to just 2.5% of the amount borrowed, so I don't consider that to provide much security.) The problem I have with those is that they may be degraded severely if the company gets into difficulty. (Look what happened to the plumber!) And those who have been at AC long enough know that there was a London retailer who took a £1M loan at 9% secured with 'designer' stock and debtors and PGs. Not to mention that the prior charges on those assets were 68% LTV. The LTV was 80% with the £1M AC loan. The underwriters were stuck with a lot of that loan for the year before it was repaid. The trade finance debtors are insured as explained in the credit report, so we should be fine although there's always that nagging doubt as to whether the terms of the insurance are being complied with. Although I don't like the borrower as a sponsor/introducer, I think the core trade finance business is well structured and this is actually my largest single exposure on the platform. I'd have more if I liked them better. To address the other concern that has been raised, I don't think the refinancing risk is massive because they can always run off the book if they have to.
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sqh
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Before P2P, savers put a guinea in a piggy bank, now they smash the banks to become guinea pigs.
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Post by sqh on Oct 17, 2015 0:56:07 GMT
I can't understand why they aren't more popular. Since they loan my cash to others they are diversifying for me. Remarkably similar to lendy limited surely? They are always going to have an insatiable thirst for cash, just like any P2P lending platform really. AC have first dibs on their debtors and they keep track of their lending. Am I missing something? I suspect there are many lenders who don't understand the concept of invoice discounting. Then there will be others who understand the basic concept but are unfamiliar with some of the terminology. Then there will be others who take the view that if it goes badly wrong, there is the potential for a 100% loss, because there is no physical asset backing up the loan. Personally, I'm still waiting for the educational document. see p2pindependentforum.com/post/20329
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tonyr
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Post by tonyr on Oct 17, 2015 1:55:46 GMT
I see from the latest lender updates that the borrower associated with the unhappiest loans on the forum (you know who I mean, all 5 of them) is in discussion with AC about borrowing even more money. If that reaches an advanced stage, it will be interesting to see how much support it gets from AC's underwriters, who seem to be still holding an awful large percentage of the loan parts about 8-15 months into these 24-month loans This may be where Victory Park Capital and the other(s) come in. I can't see underwriters going for these, even if (as now) there isn't anything else available. Liquidity is key to underwriting and for the many reasons above these loans have proved to be illiquid. However, if the "new underwriters" just need buy and hold for term then it may suit them well.
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jonah
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Post by jonah on Oct 17, 2015 8:47:18 GMT
Presumably, if nothing else happens, once loan #1 matures (assuming that it is repaid!) there will be circa0.5m looking for a home. All of which was held by people who liked or were OK with this concept. So, in this scenario, I would guess that loans #1-4 would then have their remaining parts snapped up by that cash.
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am
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Post by am on Oct 17, 2015 9:10:44 GMT
I can't understand why they aren't more popular. Since they loan my cash to others they are diversifying for me. Remarkably similar to lendy limited surely? They are always going to have an insatiable thirst for cash, just like any P2P lending platform really. AC have first dibs on their debtors and they keep track of their lending. Am I missing something? I was thinking that borrowing long and lending short exposes you to adverse interest rate changes, such that your margin may evaporate, but on second thoughts, apart from there being not much room for downward movement in interest rates, if rates become uneconomic they can always repay the loan with incoming cash, rather than relending it.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2015 17:43:47 GMT
To address the other concern that has been raised, I don't think the refinancing risk is massive because they can always run off the book if they have to. ... if rates become uneconomic they can always repay the loan with incoming cash, rather than relending it. This is encouraging, presuming they can wind down their business without completely destroying it. I'll admit that I haven't gone back to the original Credit Report recently. Does anyone know roughly how long it might take to run off the loan book? Are we talking about short-term (60-90 day) invoice factoring? Or are their loans longer term than that, which would mean any winding down would take longer as a result?
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 17, 2015 18:26:04 GMT
I looked a few months ago and there was some reference to 150 days (which was longer than they had originally planned).
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am
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Post by am on Oct 17, 2015 19:27:26 GMT
To address the other concern that has been raised, I don't think the refinancing risk is massive because they can always run off the book if they have to. ... if rates become uneconomic they can always repay the loan with incoming cash, rather than relending it. This is encouraging, presuming they can wind down their business without completely destroying it. I'll admit that I haven't gone back to the original Credit Report recently. Does anyone know roughly how long it might take to run off the loan book? Are we talking about short-term (60-90 day) invoice factoring? Or are their loans longer term than that, which would mean any winding down would take longer as a result? I don't think it matters. Their current loanbook is at (I presume) an acceptable margin. When it repays, they can either re-lend it at an acceptable margin, or they can make a capital repayment to AC. (If they were with FC, where you have to pay off the whole loan, if would be a different matter.) The risk would be losses due to bad debts perhaps on the backs of a narrowing margin. It's not quite that simple as they have fixed overheads in addition to the cost of sales, so there's a negative feedback in that lowered volume results in an increase to the rates they have to achieve to make a profit. It seems to me that there are 3 scenarios. 1) They refinance at a lower rate. (We are talking of a hypothetical situation of generally falling interest rates.) 2) They run the business down in an orderly fashion, reducing overheads as it goes. 3) They attempt to keep trading in the hopes that interest rates would reverse. It's the last scenario which raises the spectre of default. It's liquidity as much as anything else that's kept me out of these loans. (A self-fulfilling prophecy.)
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Oct 17, 2015 19:43:24 GMT
Does anyone know roughly how long it might take to run off the loan book? Are we talking about short-term (60-90 day) invoice factoring? Or are their loans longer term than that, which would mean any winding down would take longer as a result? I don't think it matters. Their current loanbook is at (I presume) an acceptable margin. When it repays, they can either re-lend it at an acceptable margin, or they can make a capital repayment to AC. I thought the subject was... What would happen if the borrower comes to the end of the AC loan term and hasn't arranged a refinance with another lender? In that case, the term of the loans in their portfolio and the speed at which they could wind down those loans is important. If the term is short enough, AC and its lenders likely would be happy enough to wait a couple of months for the orderly return of their money. With longer term loans, OTOH, AC lenders would be more likely to run out of patience, call in the receivers, and force a more disorderly liquidation of the borrower's assets -- which could severely damage the borrower's whole business operation.
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