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Post by xyon100 on Oct 19, 2015 6:36:16 GMT
The sites I have joined have just used the same KYC and AML procedures on me (I'm in Belgium, on paper at least) as they have for anyone else. I think I'll send some emails. One site I particularly fancy is playing the UK ONLY game, so I'll mail them. :-) I'm outside UK in EU; I know several sites have insisted on my having a UK bank account (which I do). I think from next year, courtesy of the EU that all EU banks will have to offer basic accounts to all EU citizens irrespective of domicile. At which point I should be able to access german p2p. Hurray for the EU I say. You might first consider that it was EU rules that caused the banks to shut out non residents in the first place. ;-)
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Post by xyon100 on Oct 19, 2015 11:23:50 GMT
""We are unable to accept non-UK lenders at present as this would require us to incorporate the regulations of their country of residence into our business model which at present we are unable to administer.""
Well, that's odd. I have no idea what regulations they could mean and no idea why most UK P2P do not need to incorporate the laws of other countries. Also there is mention of declaring to HMRC, but I have no idea why it makes the slightest difference if the lender is in Birmingham or Brussels.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Oct 19, 2015 11:36:55 GMT
I have no idea what regulations they could mean... And they have no idea. There might be a rule that prevents Belgians lending to businesses, or to consumers, or taking security or not. The platform has taken a cautious approach made sure what it is doing is legal in the UK and decided to restrict it to that. Betfair had lots of problems taking bets from people living in other European countries. Safer not to bother until the platform can afford better legal advice and feels the need to expand.
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Post by xyon100 on Oct 19, 2015 12:04:03 GMT
No, you're right, they have no idea. Which is back to what I said, fear of the unknown. Betfair is not really a good comparison, gambling is still severely restricted by many EU countries and I believe they lost their case against the Dutch on the grounds that they were hampering Dutch efforts to curtail problem gambling. I know of no law that would prevent a person in one member state investing their money in another. That's what it's supposed to be about!
As to HMRC, there is no more problem working with HMRC from Belgium than there is from Birmingham. I wish there was!
Anyway, I also got this that made me chuckle.....""at present we are unable to accept lenders from outside the UK as we are operating in line with UK financial regulations."" Does taking money from Belgium mean they are not working in line with UK financial regulations?! It reminds me a little of the house I bought in the UK last year, cash buyer. Girl in the estate agent says she needs proof I can pay so I show her the balance in my Belgian Deutschebank account to be greeted with...."We can't accept that, this is the UK and we don't take Euro". :-)
Nah, it's back to those eBay sellers again..........
I remember one guy who was selling a little car owners manual, little glove box thing. Asked him if he could please sent it to Belgium as mine was in French and I don't do French. The message I got back was filled with palpable fear with "sorry no, not getting in to all of that". I asked him what "all of that" was other than putting a stamp on a jiffy bag and post it, which he was going to do anyway, but he was having none of it. In his mind, dealing with overseas was riddled with dangers....;-)
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james
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Post by james on Oct 19, 2015 13:07:07 GMT
In his mind, dealing with overseas was riddled with dangers....;-) He' right about that. Getting international court judgements and enforcing them is a non-trivial task that could lead to him having to make his case in a foreign language in a foreign court if a defence is filed to the international decision notice. That's where he'd be if less formal dispute resolution failed. Yet if he's a regular trader the potential profits are probably worthwhile. There's much more possibly involved in a transaction than just the success case of posting a jiffy bag and everything working as desired.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 19, 2015 13:36:17 GMT
Those of you trying to figure out whether regulations forbid it or not are, frankly, over-thinking it.
ANY business is allowed to turn down business from anywhere, just so long as they don't do so based on several "protected characteristics". Nationality is one of those, but country of residence isn't. It would be illegal for a P2P site to turn somebody's business down purely because they're an American national. It would not be illegal for them to turn somebody down because they are in the US. Whether the country is in the EU or not is irrelevant.
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Post by xyon100 on Oct 19, 2015 13:40:43 GMT
In his mind, dealing with overseas was riddled with dangers....;-) He' right about that. Getting international court judgements and enforcing them is a non-trivial task that could lead to him having to make his case in a foreign language in a foreign court if a defence is filed to the international decision notice. That's where he'd be if less formal dispute resolution failed. Yet if he's a regular trader the potential profits are probably worthwhile. There's much more possibly involved in a transaction than just the success case of posting a jiffy bag and everything working as desired. You sound like a UK eBay seller, James! Quality stuff! Just what I've been hearing for years! International court action already, that's a classic! And over a 99P booklet? Probably worth it if he sells a lot? That statement suggests there is something difficult about putting the booklet in the post to Belgium, so what is that difficulty?
""There's much more possibly involved in a transaction than just the success case of posting a jiffy bag and everything working as desired.""
And the difference if he sends to Birmingham is what, exactly? Oh yes, the ease of court action if there is a dispute over the 99P booklet. Sure, the courts in the UK will make this legal action over 99P so much easier.
Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I have been seeing tosh like that for so many years and it is soooooo UK! To be honest, the 99P booklet episode was the last straw, never asked a UK seller to send to Belgium again. Generally this discussion ends up with "sellers can post where they like" which was never in question but I'll save you having to do it. :-)
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Post by xyon100 on Oct 19, 2015 13:44:46 GMT
Those of you trying to figure out whether regulations forbid it or not are, frankly, over-thinking it. ANY business is allowed to turn down business from anywhere, just so long as they don't do so based on several "protected characteristics". Nationality is one of those, but country of residence isn't. It would be illegal for a P2P site to turn somebody's business down purely because they're an American national. It would not be illegal for them to turn somebody down because they are in the US. Whether the country is in the EU or not is irrelevant. That's the old eBay thing again, they can turn down the business if they want. We know this. It does not answer the question as to why though.
""It would be illegal for a P2P site to turn somebody's business down purely because they're an American national.""
Are you sure of this? Americans seem to be getting kicked out of their banks and out of financial services all over the world.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 19, 2015 13:53:34 GMT
It does not answer the question as to why though. Yes, it does. It is the entire answer you need. "Because they want to." The logic behind it is irrelevant. There is no benefit in you knowing what their logic is. They do not want your business, for reasons of their own. It is that simple. Maybe they have a corporate policy of believing the Daily Mail. When you say "Americans", do you mean "US Nationals", "US residents" or "people who are trying to transfer money in via the US banking system"? They aren't the same thing.
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james
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Post by james on Oct 19, 2015 15:18:56 GMT
over a 99P booklet?... Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I have been seeing tosh like that for so many years and it is soooooo UK! To be honest, the 99P booklet episode was the last straw, never asked a UK seller to send to Belgium again. Please do something about that chip on your shoulder. I can understand that it's frustrating for you but over the last few months I've done thing like finding purchase of shipping containers from China, lending on planes in South America and have had tens of thousands of Pounds invested via an Estonian P2P company. Also happen to have a non-UK direct manager at work and an Eastern European one above her and routinely work with people from a couple of dozen nationalities. There are real potential issues with international business. For a 99p booklet, a price you hadn't mentioned at the time of my post, it may not be worth worrying about but I can understand someone who has no international background not being comfortable even though that wouldn't bother me at all and of course it's just a routine part of normal life for you, as it was for me when I was living outside the UK.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 19, 2015 18:32:22 GMT
Those of you trying to figure out whether regulations forbid it or not are, frankly, over-thinking it. ANY business is allowed to turn down business from anywhere, just so long as they don't do so based on several "protected characteristics". Nationality is one of those, but country of residence isn't. It would be illegal for a P2P site to turn somebody's business down purely because they're an American national. It would not be illegal for them to turn somebody down because they are in the US. Whether the country is in the EU or not is irrelevant. No no as this thread has already demonstrated, turning somebody down as an investor because they are an American national (USA) is completely rational, to do otherwise would be reckless.
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shimself
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Post by shimself on Oct 19, 2015 18:41:29 GMT
I've asked pretty please of a couple of UK p2x outfits (UK passport, EU resident, still have a UK bank ac) and they've managed it - the identity people equifax I think, just charge them a bit extra, so despite the t&cs its worth asking.
FC refused
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Post by xyon100 on Oct 20, 2015 9:48:10 GMT
A sincere thanks for telling me they don't have to do business out of the UK if they don't want to. In 15 years of questioning why so many people think the world ends at Dover, I never heard that explanation before.
Going back to Americans, I think you'll find that the definition they look for is "US person" and I would be astounded if UK financial institution were breaking the law by refusing their custom.
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