skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 18, 2015 17:00:34 GMT
Being a relatively new investor (<1yr) I've been checking interest accrued on a daily basis. I use an Excel spread sheet to calculate what the actual daily int. rate works out to on each loan, obviously taking into account any principal changes on the day. Most loans are virtually the same day in day out, some vary minisculy. However this w/e 2 loans are not miniscule discrepancies.
Loan 146 (which paid back circa 49.03% of the principal on Friday) was down on interest Saturday, instead of paying 14.956357759%, only 5.226538125% was added, today is slightly higher than usual 14.969248645%)
Loan 66 (monthly interest & principal were paid on Friday) was down today, not as much as the above instead of paying 13.696864984%, only 11.929551463% was added.
Is it coincidental that the interest gremlins throw wobbly when a payment is made?
Now, this is NOT the worst incident that I have noticed, the notorious Loan 84 which has been suspended and has not paid an iota of the accrued interest since I "invested" in it, actually SUBTRACTED from the accrued total just for one day several weeks ago. I sent an email to a rep. of Assetz, who replied with a request for more info. which I duly sent. Fortunately, I didn't hold my breath 'cos to date I have not had a response.
I am somewhat surprised nobody has noticed any of these anomalies....or perhaps I'm going a little crazy.
I've also noticed some loans that quote the same interest rate vary.
Now, I understand that Assetz work to 40 decimal places.....I for one would be quite happy with 12(preferably rounded up, but down is OK and Assetz keep the shrapnel. But I would like to see more consistancy in return.
Believe it, or not, apart from the 3 above instances I have been happy with the service.
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Post by mrclondon on Oct 18, 2015 17:45:55 GMT
There is no loan #161 ... I assume you meant #146
(Pure guess) some of the interest / capital repayments are not credited on the date due but a day or 2 later (weekends etc) ... could it be that you have observed the system correctling for the over accrual of interest between the due repayment date (against which the capital reduction will have been applied) and the actual repayment date ? In the case of #146 this would imply the funds had been received by AC before Friday.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 18, 2015 17:47:23 GMT
Being a relatively new investor (<1yr) I've been checking interest accrued on a daily basis. I use an Excel spread sheet to calculate what the actual daily int. rate works out to on each loan, obviously taking into account any principal changes on the day. Most loans are virtually the same day in day out, some vary minisculy. However this w/e 2 loans are not miniscule discrepancies. Loan 161 (which paid back circa 49.03% of the principal on Friday) was down on interest Saturday, instead of paying 14.956357759%, only 5.226538125% was added, today is slightly higher than usual 14.969248645%) Loan 66 (monthly interest & principal were paid on Friday) was down today, not as much as the above instead of paying 13.696864984%, only 11.929551463% was added. Is it coincidental that the interest gremlins throw wobbly when a payment is made? Now, this is NOT the worst incident that I have noticed, the notorious Loan 84 which has been suspended and has not paid an iota of the accrued interest since I "invested" in it, actually SUBTRACTED from the accrued total just for one day several weeks ago. I sent an email to a rep. of Assetz, who replied with a request for more info. which I duly sent. Fortunately, I didn't hold my breath 'cos to date I have not had a response. I am somewhat surprised nobody has noticed any of these anomalies....or perhaps I'm going a little crazy. I've also noticed some loans that quote the same interest rate vary. Now, I understand that Assetz work to 40 decimal places.....I for one would be quite happy with 12(preferably rounded up, but down is OK and Assetz keep the shrapnel. But I would like to see more consistancy in return. Believe it, or not, apart from the 3 above instances I have been happy with the service. mikeb is probably the best man for this. He's been flagging up issues with AC interest calcs since new platform launched, including highlighting all the loans accruing at the wrong rates in the early months of the new platform. Sometimes the system gets stuck overnight and needs a nudge from Chris but hasn't been flagged recently.
From my experience in poking AC on such things (eg sorting Ippy) it does take a few attempts for them to sort it
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Post by chris on Oct 18, 2015 17:49:18 GMT
Interest is worked out according to the repayment schedule as listed on the site. If that ever becomes out of date or ends because the repayment plan has ended, even if the borrower has not made those repayments, then interest stops accruing. So when a loan overruns no additional interest will accrue until the admin team enter in additional information into the repayment schedule to reflect any interest that is accruing. This was deemed preferable to the system assuming interest would accrue and then having to cancel that at a later date, for instance if the borrower makes the payment within the grace period. If the repayment schedule is ever wrong or is changed that will have a knock on effect on the accrued interest until it is corrected by the admin team.
Accrued interest is worked out afresh each day - it's not a number that accumulates a little bit each day, it's worked out as a percentage of the payment due for the repayment period we're currently in. Interest is also recalculated from scratch at the point the payment is made rather than looking at the accrued interest figure, so there's always that manual double check that the payment amount is correct at the point it's paid.
Interest is also calculated based on holdings at each midnight, so the interest accrued from Friday to Saturday where a capital repayment had been made on the Friday would be on the reduced balance. Depending on when repayment dates fall you can also see some variation between loans. For instance if they have no monthly repayments and are accruing across months vs a monthly repayment loan. Interest is calculated for the period based on x% per month not x% per day, so actual daily interest will vary depending on the number of days in the month. Accrued interest is allocated based on a simple percentage of the way through the repayment period so if you have x% per month on a 6 month repayment period each day may be 100/184% of the total due for that period, whereas a x% per month on a monthly repayment schedule may be accumulating at 100/30% of the total due for that month. ((x / 12) * 6 * 100) / 184 != ((x / 12) * 100) / 30
Calculating interest in this way means that the repayments each month are identical, rather than varying, which is easier to administer and to ask borrowers to set up via standing order.
If you have any specific queries then please could I ask you to direct them to our lender team? They'll be happy to take your phone all or email and can then discuss the specifics and refer them to our credit team to check the figures. Should they find a discrepancy they can then give me the specifics to investigate and fix in the system.
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
Posts: 787
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 18, 2015 18:11:33 GMT
Interest is also calculated based on holdings at each midnight, so the interest accrued from Friday to Saturday where a capital repayment had been made on the Friday would be on the reduced balance. If you have any specific queries then please could I ask you to direct them to our lender team? They'll be happy to take your phone all or email and can then discuss the specifics and refer them to our credit team to check the figures. Should they find a discrepancy they can then give me the specifics to investigate and fix in the system. a) I did mention payments had been taken into account b) As stated I'm still waiting for a reply about loan 84 Using my method the majority of loans match Assetz to 15 decimal places. After manually inputting a few slight varitions I have written a macro that adjusts the interest rate to match that days Assetz figures. It would be nice to able to copy and paste the amounts like in the account statement, though it's a pity this only applies to the purchases
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
Posts: 787
Likes: 424
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 18, 2015 18:26:34 GMT
There is no loan #161 ... I assume you meant #146 (Pure guess) some of the interest / capital repayments are not credited on the date due but a day or 2 later (weekends etc) ... could it be that you have observed the system correctling for the over accrual of interest between the due repayment date (against which the capital reduction will have been applied) and the actual repayment date ? In the case of #146 this would imply the funds had been received by AC before Friday. You are absolutely correct, I did quickly read b4 posting but I didn't check the loan nos......5 minutes on the naughty step OK? The principal was reduced in my account on the Friday, on the Saturday the hiccup occurred. No problems with interest on the Thursday, today as I stated the interest was very slightly higher than expected..... may be as the month goes this will continue to correct the underpayment.
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Post by chris on Oct 18, 2015 18:58:29 GMT
Interest is also calculated based on holdings at each midnight, so the interest accrued from Friday to Saturday where a capital repayment had been made on the Friday would be on the reduced balance. If you have any specific queries then please could I ask you to direct them to our lender team? They'll be happy to take your phone all or email and can then discuss the specifics and refer them to our credit team to check the figures. Should they find a discrepancy they can then give me the specifics to investigate and fix in the system. a) I did mention payments had been taken into account b) As stated I'm still waiting for a reply about loan 84 Using my method the majority of loans match Assetz to 15 decimal places. After manually inputting a few slight varitions I have written a macro that adjusts the interest rate to match that days Assetz figures. It would be nice to able to copy and paste the amounts like in the account statement, though it's a pity this only applies to the purchases I've been looking into loan 84 and have found an anomaly with that loan causing the accrued interest isn't being updated on the loan. I'll either fix it tonight if I have time or tomorrow if not.
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Post by chris on Oct 18, 2015 19:06:13 GMT
a) I did mention payments had been taken into account b) As stated I'm still waiting for a reply about loan 84 Using my method the majority of loans match Assetz to 15 decimal places. After manually inputting a few slight varitions I have written a macro that adjusts the interest rate to match that days Assetz figures. It would be nice to able to copy and paste the amounts like in the account statement, though it's a pity this only applies to the purchases I've been looking into loan 84 and have found an anomaly with that loan causing the accrued interest isn't being updated on the loan. I'll either fix it tonight if I have time or tomorrow if not. Actually tell a lie. I've found an issue that will affect another class of loan but it doesn't appear to affect #84. Can you PM me your email address so that I can look into the specifics of your account / holding please.
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Post by chris on Oct 18, 2015 19:29:21 GMT
skippyonspeed - I've checked the loan holdings as a whole and accrued interest is up to date and correctly allocated en mass. I've also located your account (same display name on the site as used on the forum) and the calculation appears correct. I'll send a chase to the admin team as they'll need to work through the loan parts held over time to see if the system has correctly calculated the individual allocations.
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mikeb
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Post by mikeb on Oct 18, 2015 20:06:23 GMT
Loan 146 (which paid back circa 49.03% of the principal on Friday) was down on interest Saturday, instead of paying 14.956357759%, only 5.226538125% was added, today is slightly higher than usual 14.969248645%) Loan 66 (monthly interest & principal were paid on Friday) was down today, not as much as the above instead of paying 13.696864984%, only 11.929551463% was added. Loan 84 which has been suspended and has not paid an iota of the accrued interest since I "invested" in it, actually SUBTRACTED from the accrued total just for one day several weeks ago. I sent an email to a rep. of Assetz, who replied with a request for more info. which I duly sent. Fortunately, I didn't hold my breath 'cos to date I have not had a response.. Someone called? I can't say that I noticed anything wrong with the above loans over the last couple of days. The large repayment chunk on 146 may have masked an error that I missed, due to principal changing by a lot. Loan 66 seems ok, and loan 84 hasn't moved in ages due to me having no holding (but still owed interest). On the effect you note for loan 84, it used to happen annoyingly often that correctly accrued interest would un-accrue. This is because the accrued interest is calculated from first principles, all the way back to the start of the loan, taking into account everything that ever happened. Sometimes, people go in and tweak "what happened" in terms of dates, amounts, rate applied, and it shows up like that. I don't think that's a good idea, as it allows revisionism of the figures without any visible statement entry, or other indication, which is why I distrust and check the figures. Not surprised to find that others are doing the same. On the secondary effect of loan 84 (comms) -- also not surprised. On the "official channels" sometimes things are dealt with internally without thanks/acknowledgement of an actual problem. Other times they are just lost/ignored. Which is why chris gets prodded on here instead
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 18, 2015 20:16:35 GMT
Chris explained how the interest is calculated which like most things seems to be far too complicated. I'm not sure about the logic tho'. I would of thought it would be far less work trying to keep 10,000 lenders happy, than a couple of hundred borrowers, but hey ho ***DIK!!!
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Post by chris on Oct 18, 2015 20:33:52 GMT
Chris explained how the interest is calculated which like most things seems to be far too complicated. I'm not sure about the logic tho'. I would of thought it would be far less work trying to keep 10,000 lenders happy, than a couple of hundred borrowers, but hey ho ***DIK!!! Interest is calculated monthly as with most other platforms and banks for term loans, rather than daily. Accrued interest is for display purposes only, it's a lender convenience function and isn't used anywhere else. This is calculated as a simple percentage of the way through the repayment period. There isn't a simpler solution.
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skippyonspeed
Some people think I'm a little bit crazy, but I know my mind's not hazy
Posts: 787
Likes: 424
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Post by skippyonspeed on Oct 19, 2015 1:40:58 GMT
The principal was reduced in my account on the Friday, on the Saturday the hiccup occurred. No problems with interest on the Thursday, today as I stated the interest was very slightly higher than expected..... may be as the month goes this will continue to correct the underpayment. Good news peeps! Overnight interest for all 14 of my loans was correct to 13 decimal places bar 1. (only 2 required the 14th d.p. to be changed due to rounding of the next d.p.)) Even gooder news! The 'bar 1' was Loan 66 & seems to be doing what I thought might happen above-: Interest rate this a.m. was 13.25503660382680% (yesterday 12.8132082234198%)...... (Perhaps someone just had a fiddle after my little moan!) n.b. all interest rates quoted are equivalent a.p.r.'s and I use 365.25 days in calcs to allow for jump years.....as I stated earlier I like consistancy and I don't want to bother changing formulae twice every 4 years......but I suppose I could write another macro and add a new button... but there again I can't be a**ed (I think I'm enough)! If you want me to give daily updates on my loans on daily basis, give me a 'like' on this post, if not do what some obscure US politition once said "Just say NO". Thought about adding a vote but I can't see an option for a thread already started, if someone with knowlege can tell me how then great.
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sl75
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Post by sl75 on Oct 19, 2015 7:29:48 GMT
Chris explained how the interest is calculated which like most things seems to be far too complicated. I'm not sure about the logic tho'. I would of thought it would be far less work trying to keep 10,000 lenders happy, than a couple of hundred borrowers, but hey ho ***DIK!!! Interest is calculated monthly as with most other platforms and banks for term loans, rather than daily. Accrued interest is for display purposes only, it's a lender convenience function and isn't used anywhere else. This is calculated as a simple percentage of the way through the repayment period. There isn't a simpler solution. There is a simpler solution - the one most other platforms I'm aware of use (including regulated exchanges such as the bonds market on the London Stock Exchange) - that any accrued interest becomes the property of the buyer, and the price agreed between buyer and seller (whether determined by the platform, or by negotiation between the buyer and seller) reflects this. This way, the accrued interest due to any given lender can be calculated solely on the basis of that lender's holdings at that precise moment, with no reference to historic sales and purchases during the accrual period. It also allows those who wish to exit the platform completely to do so without needing to withdraw dribs and drabs of interest... only when entire loans are blocked from sale would a lender who sells out completely even need to come back to the platform at all! The "seller keeps accrued interest" mechanism certainly seems a smart solution to the pricing function of loan parts, which can then focus solely on the value of the capital. However, the huge complexity around the AC interest accrual calculation seems to me a direct result of this decision to treat "capital" and "accrued interest" completely separately on the secondary market, allowing one to be sold and blocking sales of the other completely. Instead of just multiplying the total accrued interest on the borrower loan by the proportion of the loan currently held, this then results in AC having to analyse all past sales and purchases in order to discover exactly how long that specific lender has held units of the loan over the entire interest accrual period.
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Post by chris on Oct 19, 2015 7:45:47 GMT
Interest is calculated monthly as with most other platforms and banks for term loans, rather than daily. Accrued interest is for display purposes only, it's a lender convenience function and isn't used anywhere else. This is calculated as a simple percentage of the way through the repayment period. There isn't a simpler solution. There is a simpler solution - the one most other platforms I'm aware of use (including regulated exchanges such as the bonds market on the London Stock Exchange) - that any accrued interest becomes the property of the buyer, and the price agreed between buyer and seller (whether determined by the platform, or by negotiation between the buyer and seller) reflects this. This way, the accrued interest due to any given lender can be calculated solely on the basis of that lender's holdings at that precise moment, with no reference to historic sales and purchases during the accrual period. It also allows those who wish to exit the platform completely to do so without needing to withdraw dribs and drabs of interest... only when entire loans are blocked from sale would a lender who sells out completely even need to come back to the platform at all! The "seller keeps accrued interest" mechanism certainly seems a smart solution to the pricing function of loan parts, which can then focus solely on the value of the capital. However, the huge complexity around the AC interest accrual calculation seems to me a direct result of this decision to treat "capital" and "accrued interest" completely separately on the secondary market, allowing one to be sold and blocking sales of the other completely. Instead of just multiplying the total accrued interest on the borrower loan by the proportion of the loan currently held, this then results in AC having to analyse all past sales and purchases in order to discover exactly how long that specific lender has held units of the loan over the entire interest accrual period. Sorry but I strongly disagree. Whether the accrued interest is paid by a buyer or not doesn't change the way the interest itself is calculated which is what was being criticised for being too complex. Ignoring the scope creep, if the buyer assumes liability for that interest then you just shift the complexity from the seller to the buyer, but where with the seller it's just a case of "interest accrued to this point gets paid by the borrower when the payment is made" you replace that with a hugely complex issue for the buyer where a defaulting loan assumes additional risk of loss which needs to be factored in to your risk / reward calculation. Your actual yield shifts downward with the additional cash at risk which then makes your true interest rate earned far more complicated to calculate. With a multi-month repayment window on a bridging loan then you could end up with a very large accrued interest liability for potentially small return if the loan is scheduled to repay within a month or two. I agree that this presents some challenges behind the scenes in order to calculate precisely who is owed what but I don't think those calculations have been changed for many many months, certainly not this year, and are working perfectly well, and with the recent aftermarket upgrade loans are being reliably recalculated each day. As long as the repayment schedule is correct the accrued interest function works fine. Given the benefits to fairness to buyer and seller (in that the market remains viable throughout the term of the loan) then I'd happily trade that complexity in our code for calculating accrued interest with not having to dynamically calculate yield for buyers across multiple payment periods with a shifting amount of capital at risk.
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