arbster
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Post by arbster on Oct 29, 2015 21:07:46 GMT
However, the fundamental point is that interest MUST always begin to accrue from the moment funds are transferred to the Borrower Yes, this.
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dawn
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Post by dawn on Oct 29, 2015 21:40:14 GMT
I am yet to receive my email detailing LC's proposals. However, in the meantime, my view is that accruing interest from the point of bidding is great but only available in a few places. For all the others interest should either be accrued from the end of the auction period (or date of drawdown if before end of auction period) to help speed up the slow processes on some lending sites such as LC OR from the date the borrower actually takes the money. However in the case of the latter the time allowed after the end of the auction period has to be very clear and strictly adhered to (be it 5 days, 7 days, 10 days or whatever - that is for LC to decide). Currently this appears to be a vague wishy-washy period which is not good for lenders or borrowers.
One of the big problems with how this loan was handled was the lack of clarity and communication - I have not been with LC long so please forgive me if this was spelt out clearly in the past and I missed it. Lenders and borrowers alike should know ahead of any auction exactly how it is going to work. Loan auction will last X days, after it ends there will be Y days for the borrower to decide whether to collect or not, interest will paid either from end of auction or Y days after auction, but definitely from when the borrower takes the money. Everyone knows where they stand. I don't have a problem with being told that Auction A will last 7 days and the borrower will have up to 5 days to decide and that Auction B will be 14 days and the borrower will have up to 7 days to decide. They don't have to be the same, but it may cause a headache for LC to implement. The point is it is clear and I can decide whether I want to invest in either of the auctions and the borrower is clear what is expected of them.
It is up to LC which way they go, but please, please, please make it very clear and up front for everyone to see. It will benefit borrowers and lenders alike - we don't like being kept in the dark or feeling that some-one is trying to pull a fast one on us (borrowers or lenders). Sneaking through a month's interest-free loan for this borrower was an example of that.
Bottom line - once the borrower has the money they should be paying interest on it.
Lastly this wasn't an attack on this particular borrower (who happens to be not too far away from where I live - one of the reasons I invested), but on the principle of how the loan was handled. I am hopeful that future loans will be handled and communicated better.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 29, 2015 22:06:53 GMT
Well said.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 22:07:12 GMT
I am yet to receive my email detailing LC's proposals. However, in the meantime, my view is that accruing interest from the point of bidding is great but only available in a few places. For all the others interest should either be accrued from the end of the auction period (or date of drawdown if before end of auction period) to help speed up the slow processes on some lending sites such as LC OR from the date the borrower actually takes the money. However in the case of the latter the time allowed after the end of the auction period has to be very clear and strictly adhered to (be it 5 days, 7 days, 10 days or whatever - that is for LC to decide). Currently this appears to be a vague wishy-washy period which is not good for lenders or borrowers. One of the big problems with how this loan was handled was the lack of clarity and communication - I have not been with LC long so please forgive me if this was spelt out clearly in the past and I missed it. Lenders and borrowers alike should know ahead of any auction exactly how it is going to work. Loan auction will last X days, after it ends there will be Y days for the borrower to decide whether to collect or not, interest will paid either from end of auction or Y days after auction, but definitely from when the borrower takes the money. Everyone knows where they stand. I don't have a problem with being told that Auction A will last 7 days and the borrower will have up to 5 days to decide and that Auction B will be 14 days and the borrower will have up to 7 days to decide. They don't have to be the same, but it may cause a headache for LC to implement. The point is it is clear and I can decide whether I want to invest in either of the auctions and the borrower is clear what is expected of them. It is up to LC which way they go, but please, please, please make it very clear and up front for everyone to see. It will benefit borrowers and lenders alike - we don't like being kept in the dark or feeling that some-one is trying to pull a fast one on us (borrowers or lenders). Sneaking through a month's interest-free loan for this borrower was an example of that. Bottom line - once the borrower has the money they should be paying interest on it. Lastly this wasn't an attack on this particular borrower (who happens to be not too far away from where I live - one of the reasons I invested), but on the principle of how the loan was handled. I am hopeful that future loans will be handled and communicated better. Here is where I totally disagree with you. It is MY money (lender's money) that is lent. So it cannot be LC to decide arbitrarily the number of days it takes to pass the money to the borrower, or impose things which are out of the world (like giving a borrower 3 weeks to decide or give them free money for a month). Of course the interest must start accruing at very least when this is transferred to the borrower, but also the time needed between the end of the auction and the delivery of the money to the borrower MUST be very limited and well known in advance (for example 5 days maximum). As of now, LC timings are honestly disastrous. An auction lasting 10-15 days or 15-20 days to pass the money out are honestly unacceptable when there are plenty of alternatives which work fast and efficiently.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Oct 29, 2015 22:11:30 GMT
Without wanting to put words into dawn's mouth, I think what she was saying is that it's the clarity that is important. LC can run their business anyway they want to, but we, as lenders via LC, need to understand their approach. If we're comfortable with it we stay, if we're not we walk. But if we don't know, or understand..... we're left confused and frustrated - wanting to support a new platform, wanting to support SMEs, but gritting our teeth at some of the own goals conceded / easy wins missed.
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jimbob
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Post by jimbob on Oct 29, 2015 23:22:11 GMT
Instant returns are a bonus, but interest simply must start accruing once funds are drawn down by the borrower, as that is when a risk is started.
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arbster
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Post by arbster on Oct 30, 2015 7:14:30 GMT
Here is where I totally disagree with you. It is MY money (lender's money) that is lent. So it cannot be LC to decide arbitrarily the number of days it takes to pass the money to the borrower, or impose things which are out of the world (like giving a borrower 3 weeks to decide or give them free money for a month). Of course the interest must start accruing at very least when this is transferred to the borrower, but also the time needed between the end of the auction and the delivery of the money to the borrower MUST be very limited and well known in advance (for example 5 days maximum). As of now, LC timings are honestly disastrous. An auction lasting 10-15 days or 15-20 days to pass the money out are honestly unacceptable when there are plenty of alternatives which work fast and efficiently. Frankly, you appear to be forgetting this is P2P lending and not "banking". Whilst I agree that it would be completely inappropriate for borrowers to have "interest-free" periods where the money is in their hands, it's not unreasonable for there to be unexpected delays due to legals and/or business cycles. Ideally, these would be planned for and minimised, and auction durations will shorten, but the tone if your posts on this thread has been unnecessarily inflammatory, IMO. Unless you've declined the introductory offers from LC, and didn't take a referral offer, both of which are generous and reflect the fact that this is a new platform, remember that it's not just borrowers getting freebies... I'm heartened that lendingcrowd have reviewed their processes on the back of this situation. I'm surprised that @hor1997 appears to be the only lender on the platform to have received LC's proposed process changes, but look forward to seeing them soon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 11:58:10 GMT
Well, good luck to those happy with the platform. I will be happy to see you all buy my loan slices on the secondary market :-)
The LC letter with their review decision was an answer to a direct complaint I made, but it mentioned that the 'compensation' they offered was applicable to all lenders in this loan, so I assume they will communicate to them all. Ask them and I am sure they will pass to you all their decisions.
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jimbob
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Post by jimbob on Oct 30, 2015 14:49:31 GMT
I have received the LC letter/proposal and am not happy with it. In particular LC propose a new mechanism of interest accrual which is as clear as mud and as manipulable as they wish... (they would like to propose to start the interest accrual on the date the money is released, which of course is unknown and not verifiable by the lenders....). I decided not to invest anymore on this network, but for the benefits of all lenders I strongly suggest that all insist for LC to adopt a simple and transparent rule, i.e. "a Loan starts accruing interest from the date in which the Loan Auction has closed". The end of the auction is a date which is CERTAIN and known to lenders (differently to the date of money transfer which is unknown and makes things extremely muddy and arbitrarily manipulable...). Moreover this also incentive borrowers to take quick actions in accepting/refusing the loan, which is necessary to speed up the whole extremely slow current LC process... No, this is standard practice for Fundingsecure and Savingstream and many other platforms. Your second paragraph refers to "Instant returns" - which are offered by Ablrate on their loans. I can't remember how Fundingcircle does it - upon auction close I think... but they are fixed rate now so you lose out that way. Ratesetter starts accruing from "matched" so an instant return/drawdown comparison there doesn't make sense. I've only been in p2p a couple of months, and each platform has a right to operate how it likes - Instant returns are a privelige, not a right ! The issue with WH was the delay on interest after drawdown. LC to their credit I think have realised this and are acting on it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 16:32:34 GMT
Well, I have been investing in p2p for a long time and cannot remember any platform giving borrowers money for free or not asking payment for any single day they had their money.
The most important thing is fairness and openness to me. FC tells me that the interest starts accruing the day the auction ends (and it does!). It is a clear and very precise statement. SS gives interest on any single day you invest (whether or not the borrower has withdrawn does not matter at all) instantly and is clear about this as well. Same for RS. Immediate accrual from the start of investment. All of the above are very fair mechanisms.
On the other hand, LC had a policy which was totally arbitrary (i.e. they will help the borrower as much as they can, even giving 3 weeks total free money). This is a point which is unacceptable to me.
They seem to wish to change, but instead of taking a clear stance they are still proposing an arbitrary and unknown date, i.e. the interest starts accruing when the borrower gets the money, which is still totally unknown (and unpredictable) beforehand. This is an unknown date, not verifiable by lenders and LC could agree it anyway arbitrary with the borrower so that money does not get interest for weeks, so to me this is not a sufficient step forward. I have passed the feedback to LC, even if I will not invest on here until (if and when) things start moving faster and clearer.
Why should I risk my money or even see it given for free for weeks to unsecured borrowers when I can have it at a given certain rate from day one of my inestment an with additional security?
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Post by westonkevRS on Oct 30, 2015 19:25:10 GMT
RS allow consumer borrowers to set the first repayment date up to 60 days from drawdown (iirc, westonkevRS ? ). I took a loan out a good few years ago and was offered the same flexible start so it's not unusual in the loan market. I've not heard of it before for business loans, but then the vast majority of my experience is through P2P. FC's process of starting to accrue 7 days after listing is very agreeable for lenders and possibly what we have come to expect? Yes lenders can choose their payment date with RareSetter, it's very common across the entire consumer lending industry including credit cards. You tend to get a peak on the 1st of the month, when you give the choice, which unfortunately does cause liquidity volatility. I don't think you can go to 60 days in advance, it actually varies depending on the day the loan is taken, Around 45 days is maximum I think....
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treeman
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Post by treeman on Oct 30, 2015 19:56:54 GMT
An update re W** H** / future loans has been emailed to active investors - the exact details of how this is to be resolved to follow early next week. Looks promising.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Oct 30, 2015 20:24:25 GMT
I received an email about this loan. "We have reviewed our policy in this regard and in future the first repayment date for all loans will be shortened to a maximum of 4 weeks after draw-down of funds, rather than our current maximum of 6 weeks."
They also add: "We would like to apologise for any inconvenience caused by this and in the circumstances we will be making an ex gratia payment to each investor in this loan."
They are currently doing the calculations. I think this shows good will on LC's part. Although I would like to start receiving interest as quickly as possible I think that compared to all the p2p industry this seems very reasonable to me.
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dawn
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Post by dawn on Nov 2, 2015 10:35:46 GMT
Clarity is very important to build trust and confidence (thank you registerme - that was what I was saying). So we now know that from now on the 1st interest payment will be 4 weeks from drawdown, ie interest will start to accrue once the borrower has the money. The next point that needed clarity was how long after the end of an auction before a borrower draws down. I emailed Lending Crowd about that and their reply is
"The Borrower has 5 working days to accept the offer, in exceptional circumstances we will extend this on the basis that there has been a lot of effort by the Borrower and the Investor to fully fund the loan. Once this is accepted the paperwork is issued and in accordance with our Terms and Conditions (8.2) they have 14 days to return the paperwork. This period of time covers any possible holidays and any legal advice that may be required, they are obviously not going to arrange a meeting with a solicitor if they are sure they are proceeding with the loan. In most cases the paperwork is returned in a couple of days, and we accept scanned copies pending receipt of the original paperwork in the post."
That also is now very clear, although potentially nearly 3 weeks if a borrower takes their fully allotted time, however most don't. I am now much, much clearer on how Lending Crowd work and this is rebuilding my trust in them. Balancing investors and borrowers needs in a practical way to keep all sides happy cannot be easy and I think Lending Crowd have reacted quickly and positively to sorting this problem, for which they should be commended. Their solution may not please everyone, but we are now clear on how this works.
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treeman
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Post by treeman on Nov 3, 2015 22:37:10 GMT
Having quickly checked my account for the first time since the weekend I notice that the promised ex-gratia payment re W** H**** was made yesterday. Well done lendingcrowd for resolving this as promised.
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