huxs
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Post by huxs on Nov 16, 2015 12:38:40 GMT
All,
I know this is going to open up a whole can of worms, and may cause more confusion than it solves but I would like to ask the question to everyone: How do you calculate Risk v's reward on Property loans and more specifically Development and Bridging Loans.
While this has always been something I have been trying to workout it has become more relevant with the spread of P2P companies offering these types of loans and the potential downward pressure this may have on returns.
On the platforms I am active on I see the following:
SS steady stream on loans at 12%
FS good pipeline of loans ranging from 11-13%
MT new large loan at 12% but new partner talking about loans with varying rates 9-12%
FC with property loans 7-10 with CB of 1-3% (but with a 1% fee) so 6%-12%
and now eMoneyUnion with a 'prime' bridging loan at 9% with a hint that at this rate there is the potential for a steady stream of deals.
How can anyone (given the information provided and is not a property expert) properly work out which loans are best to invest in. Being a smaller lender and looking mainly for diversification I am currently taking the approach of investing a little in all but I don't want to get caught in a race to the bottom.
What are the risk criteria that needs to assess for each loan? Borrower risk: how do you assess the borrower risk, is a private borrower safer than a developer ? Property Risk: Is a fully built property being re-mortgaged safer than a hole in the ground or a field with planning permission ? Property Valuation risk: What is the true fire sale Valuation, is property prices safer in London than Hull in case of recession ? Other safety nets: Is there a realistic PF, is there any current property income that would cover the interest payments etc; ?
To keep this discussion simple lets leave platform risk out of the equation.
What I think I am after is a checklist that helps me rate each loan and then allows me to make a consistent decision on if the rate is sufficient reward. Maybe this is not possible but I know there are some clever people in this forum so maybe the answer is out there (maybe the P2P platforms themselves have the answer).
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Nov 16, 2015 13:07:47 GMT
IMO the only solution to your problem, which we all share, is loan diversification. Expect some losses but the extra interest may cover those and still leave you ahead of safer investments. Unfortunately losses when they do occur are unlikely to be evenly spread. there may be few or none at all for a while and then a flurry in the next downturn. IMO this may turn out to be a good time to get started on this class of investment with the opportunity to build up a reserve before the next crash.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Nov 16, 2015 14:01:35 GMT
One of the things I've been curious about is whether anybody has ever seen (or even better yet has access to and can provide) an example of a RICS valuation document that screams "don't do it". If only because it would be interesting by way of comparison.....
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 16, 2015 14:05:47 GMT
IMO the only solution to your problem, which we all share, is loan diversification. I mostly agree, but that doesn't mean that you have to invest in everything, good or bad. EDIT: I don't want to imply webwiz thinks we should invest in everything, just that it is worthwhile considering the Risk v Reward of each platform. To keep this discussion simple lets leave platform risk out of the equation. I don't think you can do this, and I will give two reason. The first is that on SS, for example, every current loan is a loan to the platform. Multiple loans to SS are not obviously increasing diversification. That is soon to change with their new P2P structure. But I am not sure about some of the others you name. My second reason for not ignoring platform risk is because the reason I am happy to lend on FC (at rates of about 8% after fee - won't lend on the lowest ones) is because I judge the platform risk to be lower than the other three you name. (I might be wrong.) What are the risk criteria that needs to assess for each loan? Borrower risk: how do you assess the borrower risk, is a private borrower safer than a developer? Property Risk:Is a fully built property being re-mortgaged safer than a hole in the ground or a field with planning permission ? Property Valuation risk: What is the true fire sale Valuation, is property prices safer in London than Hull in case of recession ? Other safety nets: Is there a realistic PF, is there any current property income that would cover the interest payments etc ? I am not an expert. I haven't had any professional dealing in this area. I have dabbled long enough to have had a few P2P default and that might be useful to you. Borrower risk: I don't know which is riskier. I like developers with a track record and I like a first charge. In one loan the developer and family moved in to the development which made enforcing the security harder. I must look into the exact legal structure of that borrower. Property risk: Yes, a built project is much less risky. These projects frequently overrun, by many months, with lots of 18%ish interest rolling up. Things do go wrong and need to be fixed before the building can be sold. Planning permission can sometimes be a problem, because of a failure to follow exact plans. If the project is more remote extensions to roads or utilities might be more expensive than forecast or slower to introduce. And the developer who bought the site is often the one with one of the highest forecast valuation for the completed project. The valuation is likely to be more accurate on a property that the valuer can actually see. Property Valuation: The better P2P companies normally include the valuation report, and it usually has not only a valuation based on a normal sale, but also one based on a quick sale. A normal residential place will usually sell quicker than something unusual or more expensive than the local area. I would imagine that in a shallow recession London might do better than Hull, but that is mostly guess work. London prices have moved up a lot more than most others, elect Prime Minister Corbyn and I would imagine London would fall more than Hull. For some commercial properties the fire sale price can be half the normal sale price. Safety nets: In any deep recession, I would imagine that a 2% provision fund would be useless. I would expect many loans to be failing and losses to be significant. There wasn't any property P2P in 2008, so it is hard to know exactly what might happen.
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 16, 2015 16:14:25 GMT
...In any deep recession, I would imagine that a 2% provision fund would be useless. I would expect many loans to be failing and losses to be significant. There wasn't any property P2P in 2008, so it is hard to know exactly what might happen. I agree with the first two sentences. While there wasn't any property p2p in 2008 there were Northern Rock, Britannia, HBOS ... Don't kid yourself that the quality of p2p property loans is any better than the loans they were making (especially on the less transparent / higher paying platforms). We are lending where the banks won't and will be first in line when the crash comes. The only question is when.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 16, 2015 16:44:36 GMT
While there wasn't any property p2p in 2008 there were Northern Rock, Britannia, HBOS ... Don't kid yourself that the quality of p2p property loans is any better than the loans they were making (especially on the less transparent / higher paying platforms). We are lending where the banks won't and will be first in line when the crash comes. The only question is when. I agree, but I think there is a second question: when it comes are our losses closer to 10%, or 30%, or something else?
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Nov 16, 2015 17:18:26 GMT
Not a clue!
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 16, 2015 17:32:12 GMT
Me neither
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Nov 16, 2015 18:17:52 GMT
While there wasn't any property p2p in 2008 there were Northern Rock, Britannia, HBOS ... Don't kid yourself that the quality of p2p property loans is any better than the loans they were making (especially on the less transparent / higher paying platforms). We are lending where the banks won't and will be first in line when the crash comes. The only question is when. I agree, but I think there is a second question: when it comes are our losses closer to 10%, or 30%, or something else? A big factor in the answer to bigfoot12's question is whether the security is a first charge or a second charge. If a loan is made at 70% LTV, and it's a first charge, then a sale with proceeds of 50% of 'value' will produce a 29% capital loss. ((70-50)/70=0.286) If a loan is made at 70% LTV, and it's a second charge with a 50% LTV first charge, then a sale with proceeds of 50% of 'value' will produce a 100% capital loss for the second charge holder. (All of the proceeds would go to the first charge holder.) And the second charge case probably would be actually worse than that -- even if the proceeds were 60% of 'value' or the first charge was only for 40% LTV, by the time the interest and late fees accrued on the first charge during the lengthy recovery process, plus /receivers' fees, are paid out the second charge holders likely would receive very little indeed. I tend to avoid second charges.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Nov 16, 2015 18:42:32 GMT
Wikipedia on Irish property bubble:
"House prices in Dublin were at one point down 56% from peak and apartment prices down over 62%"
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Liz
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Post by Liz on Nov 16, 2015 19:17:48 GMT
Thincats too has become flooded with property loans, and not much else. This seems to be a trend right across p2p.
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Liz
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Post by Liz on Nov 16, 2015 19:30:04 GMT
Wikipedia on Irish property bubble: "House prices in Dublin were at one point down 56% from peak and apartment prices down over 62%" We aren't in Ireland, may as well publish Iceland property price data. I just can't see that sort of fals in the UK. In 2008 we saw around a 25% fall, which if repeated could at a guess leave the average investor down 15%(assuming a 70LTV and first charge) SME lending with the crash would probably lead to investors losing more.
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webwiz
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Post by webwiz on Nov 16, 2015 19:40:19 GMT
Don't kid yourself that the quality of p2p property loans is any better than the loans they were making (especially on the less transparent / higher paying platforms). Well except that 70% LTV must be better than the 125% LTV that Northern Rock were offering, assuming that the valuation is realistic (a big assumption I admit). Assume: 1) You start to run down your portfolio at the first signs of trouble 2) Half your loans fail with an average loss of 20% 3) Before this you had 12 months of no losses at 12% interest then you are still ahead of a nice safe FSCS investment. Of course your losses might be higher. Or lower.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Nov 16, 2015 20:24:15 GMT
Wikipedia on Irish property bubble: "House prices in Dublin were at one point down 56% from peak and apartment prices down over 62%" We aren't in Ireland, may as well publish Iceland property price data. I just can't see that sort of fals in the UK. In 2008 we saw around a 25% fall, which if repeated could at a guess leave the average investor down 15%(assuming a 70LTV and first charge) SME lending with the crash would probably lead to investors losing more. We are not in Ireland, but I have lent to Northern Ireland, and the 25% fall you mention might have been the average, but some places, including Northern Ireland, fell much more. Most people in Ireland in June 2007 didn't expect a 56% fall either. And neither do I, but I think that during even a 25% fall a not quite finished development will attract a much lower price than any of us would like. Well except that 70% LTV must be better than the 125% LTV that Northern Rock were offering, assuming that the valuation is realistic (a big assumption I admit). Assume: 1) You start to run down your portfolio at the first signs of trouble 2) Half your loans fail with an average loss of 20% 3) Before this you had 12 months of no losses at 12% interest then you are still ahead of a nice safe FSCS investment. Of course your losses might be higher. Or lower. I agree, I plan to do the same, others might too. Let's hope we are ahead of the rest. I am worried about correlation, most of the platforms have a small number of loans from an even smaller number of brokers or introducers. I would expect a higher default correlation between these than the market as a whole. The other problem is that most loans aren't actually 70% LTV, they are loan to completed value, which is fine if they are completed. I don't look forward to selling a half completed project in a down-turn even if some of the money is still with the platform. I tend to avoid second charges. Good point on second charges, and it isn't always clear that is what you are getting. Another problem with second charges is that the first charge holder is likely to be in control of the sale, and in a difficult market might accept a lower bid than the second charge holder would want to accept. I don't expect house prices will fall significantly soon. Even if they do I agree that most of us will still be better off than we would have been with a bank saving account. But if rates fall much further (perhaps because of ISA), it might be time to get out.
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Liz
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Post by Liz on Nov 16, 2015 20:58:03 GMT
"The other problem is that most loans aren't actually 70% LTV, they are loan to completed value, which is fine if they are completed. I don't look forward to selling a half completed project in a down-turn even if some of the money is still with the platform."
True, that's why you have to be picky. I for one will forgo a bit of diversification to avoid badly secured deals.
I have seen deals where the security is 70% GDV, but the value today before any falls is over 100% LTV. Others say they are purchasing at say 350k, but its true value is 450k and base the LTV on the 450k, but its value must be 350k because that is today's market value.
I am extremely picky, 80% of property deals fail my criteria. The diffence in security can be vast on loans, and the extra 1-2% really is not worth the extra risk. I really am shocked that some property deals get filled.
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