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Post by naturalselection on Jan 14, 2016 10:42:12 GMT
I have a personal account that I quite regularly draw from, along a corporate account.
It'd be beneficial to be able to nominate my corporate account to receive the loan parts, rather than taking a chance with the secondary market.
Any opinions?
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Jan 14, 2016 11:22:37 GMT
Can this lead to a "black market" type of trading? What I am thinking of is a situation where oldgrumpy (sorry for using you for the example - I hope you do not mind) wants to buy some loan parts from me and I ask him an extra amount of money to pass them to him - money that can be transferred in an out of account fashion.
Another abuse that I can see relates to when ISAs appear hopefully next tax year. Will there be a possibility for people to move loan parts around between non-ISA and ISA accounts so that they gain more tax free interest than their ISA limit allows? This might not work on SS (since all interest is paid at the same time), but I have seen the possibility of this happening on another platform (where interest of different loans are paid on different days of the month), at least in theory.
Comments welcome.
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Post by naturalselection on Jan 14, 2016 11:27:56 GMT
Maybe it could be limited to same-name-verified accounts then.
This was the key motivator for developing my own bot re:the bot thread. It's was a pain in the arse to destroy legitimate financial leverage due to limitations of the systems, hence the bot(s).
For the ISA's I'm not sure, SS are going to have to look into the wrapper quite deeply and consider holding duration limits (plus ISAs are bound to a NI number as an identifier).
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cooling_dude
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Post by cooling_dude on Jan 14, 2016 11:35:29 GMT
Would you not have an unfair advantage on the prefunding market as well. You get twice the allocation and could easily move it around your accounts. For example if you have £600 available to invest in your business account, but nothing in your personal account; with two lots of £300 prefunding you could move the £300 from the personal account to your business account.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Jan 14, 2016 11:44:36 GMT
Would you not have an unfair advantage on the prefunding market as well. You get twice the allocation and could easily move it around your accounts. For example if you have £600 available to invest in your business account, but nothing in your personal account; with two lots of £300 prefunding you could move the £300 from the personal account to your business account. That is a good point but this situation already exists.
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cooling_dude
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Post by cooling_dude on Jan 14, 2016 11:56:47 GMT
Would you not have an unfair advantage on the prefunding market as well. You get twice the allocation and could easily move it around your accounts. For example if you have £600 available to invest in your business account, but nothing in your personal account; with two lots of £300 prefunding you could move the £300 from the personal account to your business account. That is a good point but this situation already exists. Maybe, but only by risking the amount on the SM; the feature the OP suggests would make it much easier.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Jan 14, 2016 12:11:37 GMT
No, such "partner selling" could be open to all sorts of abuse when demand so dramatically outweighs supply. How about "Mr Cash Rich" buys £50k of very large loans A, B and C after reaching a private side agreement with a number of much smaller lenders that he will sell on parts of these to them whenever they like provided they agree to sell to him 50% of their capped allocations in small loans D, E and F.
It's already pretty straightforward (now the bots are at bay again) to sell and re-buy quickly between accounts, provided you have both accounts logged in on separate browsers, the loan page open in readiness and do it around 5am. Also sell modest amounts at a time, in case someone spots the activity and leaps in.
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cooling_dude
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Post by cooling_dude on Jan 14, 2016 12:35:24 GMT
No, such "partner selling" could be open to all sorts of abuse when demand so dramatically outweighs supply. How about "Mr Cash Rich" buys £50k of very large loans A, B and C after reaching a private side agreement with a number of much smaller lenders that he will sell on parts of these to them whenever they like provided they agree to sell to him 50% of their capped allocations in small loans D, E and F. It's already pretty straightforward (now the bots are at bay again) to sell and re-buy quickly between accounts, provided you have both accounts logged in on separate browsers, the loan page open in readiness and do it around 5am. Also sell modest amounts at a time, in case someone spots the activity and leaps in. I have two accounts (one personal & one business), and quite often I achieved what you described before botgate, mainly because I was buying on the SM for both accounts, but can only physically bid while on one account. This is now more difficult, because it is hit or miss weather or not you get the re-capta pictures, which reduces the chances of you winning back your own investment. So what the OP describe bypasses all of that giving an unfair advantage (which I would suspect would benefit me with 2 accounts, but would much rather things be fair! )
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Jan 14, 2016 12:52:28 GMT
That is a good point but this situation already exists. Maybe, but only by risking the amount on the SM; the feature the OP suggests would make it much easier. I agree with you on that.
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ablender
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Post by ablender on Jan 14, 2016 12:58:14 GMT
I think the following question is at least tangentially related to this discussion, although I am not sure if it can be answered at this moment in time.
Will we be allowed to have two personal accounts, one of which is ISA wrapped and the other not? I hope that the answer will be yes, though we might need to wait for more details to be released for an answer.
It might be helpful to start brain storming ideas about this or sharing preferences.
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Jan 14, 2016 13:06:16 GMT
I don't dislike the OP's idea in principal, but it would be so open to abuse that I would be against it. What concerns me about it the most is that it would encourage the opening of multiple SS accounts (spouses, partners, etc.) with the sole purpose of obtaining multiple pre-fund allocations which would then be transferred to one account.
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ilmoro
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Post by ilmoro on Jan 14, 2016 13:46:08 GMT
Of course, there has already been some discussion about whether the most obvious abuse is going on already. The Midnight Flip - Flipping between accounts to gain interest without actually having the money invested.
Sounds like a huge can of worms from so many perspectives, many raising legal & regulatory questions I suspect
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Post by naturalselection on Jan 14, 2016 15:33:55 GMT
Would you not have an unfair advantage on the prefunding market as well. You get twice the allocation and could easily move it around your accounts. For example if you have £600 available to invest in your business account, but nothing in your personal account; with two lots of £300 prefunding you could move the £300 from the personal account to your business account. The business money isn't mine, it's my businesses - myself and my business are two separate entities. I get that most believe, in the most open implementation this would be abused, which I guess I agree with.
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Jan 14, 2016 22:27:08 GMT
I can still see some point in a one-time-only (or once a year) transfer-at-par-into-ISA facility, but whether it's worth the effort for SS to offer it, and whether HMG have even decided whether it is acceptable, are rather debatable. Separate ISA account is already a can of worms from the system point of view, and while completely separate login would be easy to implement, you then have the 'dual allocation at prefunding', and the 'OMG, which account do I stay logged in to play captcha with' (if you want to participate in the SM) etc etc.
ping-pong between accounts, ISA'd or otherwise, is never going to be acceptable behaviour.
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Investboy
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Post by Investboy on Jan 15, 2016 13:06:46 GMT
KISSS - "Keep It Simple Saving Stream"
Lets not add / ask for silly features and focus more on the core functionality, security, reliability <joke hat on> and of course most importantly fairness and accessibility for people with disabilities like no possession of latest iPad/iPhone/slow Internet/slow fingers/low resolution screens<joke hat off>.
But most importantly some more loans please.
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