mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 3, 2016 22:28:52 GMT
Translation: Trust SS to do all the DD necessary, and don't concern yourself with any questions that others have asked if you haven't thought of those Qs yourself. SS have a system set up that would allow us to see the questions that others have asked, and SS's response to those questions, and they have decided that they're not going to use it now. I can't help wondering, however, what proportion of the Qs asked aren't answered. They are not using it YET. I'm sure they have plans to start using the feature in the future or it would not be on the site at all. You seem to be obsessed with the Q&As on the website! They do answer a lot of people questions, and they are active on these forums. I don't know whose idea the Q&A feature was. It could have been included because research showed other P2P websites had that feature and the website designer -- it could have been their idea -- could include such a feature easily enough. Perhaps my comment would have been clearer if I had said "at the moment" rather than "now". I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't ever use it. Most of my dissatisfaction in the current situation is due to their statement that they would show any Q&A that they deemed to be of general interest and yet they've never shown any at all. I'd feel a lot better toward SS if they had just come out and said they would look at all Qs asked, but weren't going to make any Q&A public at the moment. Yes, we have had reports from people who have had Qs answered, and that's a good thing. But we've also had reports from people who have asked Qs and were still waiting for answers, and that's not a good thing. I haven't a clue how representative our -- undoubtedly tiny -- sample is, which is why I wondered what proportion of the Qs asked aren't answered. And yes, they are active on this forum and do answer some Qs here, and I do value their contributions. But I'm aware that forum participants are a tiny proportion of SS investors, so the Qs&As available here are not available to the vast majority of SS investors. Qs&As on the website would be available to all, and that's why I think that's so important.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Feb 3, 2016 22:55:16 GMT
Translation: Trust SS to do all the DD necessary, and don't concern yourself with any questions that others have asked if you haven't thought of those Qs yourself. SS have a system set up that would allow us to see the questions that others have asked, and SS's response to those questions, and they have decided that they're not going to use it now. I can't help wondering, however, what proportion of the Qs asked aren't answered. They are not using it YET. I'm sure they have plans to start using the feature in the future or it would not be on the site at all. You seem to be obsessed with the Q&As on the website! They do answer a lot of people questions, and they are active on these forums. Simple app development rule, don't show functionality that doesn't work. I've said it before regarding this particular piece of SS's offering. If you're not going to use it don't show it to anybody.
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on Feb 3, 2016 22:59:43 GMT
They are not using it YET. I'm sure they have plans to start using the feature in the future or it would not be on the site at all. You seem to be obsessed with the Q&As on the website! They do answer a lot of people questions, and they are active on these forums. Simple app development rule, don't show functionality that doesn't work. I've said it before regarding this particular piece of SS's offering. If you're not going to use it don't show it to anybody. I'm sure it works; they’re just not using it yet
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Post by jivan on Feb 4, 2016 9:45:30 GMT
I guess part of the problem for SS is the issue of who actually provides the answers to lenders' questions, and what are the vested interests of those supplying the answers.
Part of the TC model is the use of sponsors who act on behalf of the borrower and provide answers to questions based on their own research and information provided by the borrower. They therefore, of course, have a vested interest in seeing a loan they've sponsored succeed in attracting sufficient funds, but they also have a vested interest in winning the trust of potential investors so as to build up a good reputation for any future deals they bring to the platform. It's clear that some sponsors on TC have built a very good reputation and others less so.
However, to be fair, it must also be said that the quality of the security on offer on TC loans is sometimes/often very dubious........it can be a mish-mash of first charge over property, second charge, charge over chattels, personal guarantees, and also, most dubious of all, charges over loan books whose value can evaporate in the blink of an eye.
So I can see that with the SS model there is always a very clearly defined security on offer and a fairly reliable LTV figure based on professional valuations, based, presumably, on 'worst case scenarios'.......is this approximately correct? I'm new here, so am still trying to understand the set-up.
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SteveT
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Post by SteveT on Feb 4, 2016 9:56:00 GMT
Yup, that's pretty much it. SS spend a lot of time satisfying themselves that the security for each loan is reliable (via their trusted professional advisers) and are often criticised by some on here for the pace of the pipeline's progress. My sense is that you either trust SS's skill and judgement in this sphere, and therefore lend through them, or you don't, in which case best to take your money elsewhere. The valuation documents and loan summaries are provided for lender information rather than as a starting point for crowd DD.
There definitely needs to be better clarity over loan term (how many months of interest retained) and loan extensions, which is raised in other threads, but I don't see the pre-drawdown DD process changing any time soon.
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Post by meledor on Feb 4, 2016 10:31:23 GMT
However, to be fair, it must also be said that the quality of the security on offer on TC loans is sometimes/often very dubious........it can be a mish-mash of first charge over property, second charge, charge over chattels, personal guarantees, and also, most dubious of all, charges over loan books whose value can evaporate in the blink of an eye. So I can see that with the SS model there is always a very clearly defined security on offer and a fairly reliable LTV figure based on professional valuations, based, presumably, on 'worst case scenarios'.......is this approximately correct? I'm new here, so am still trying to understand the set-up.
And that's the reason I spend a lot more time on due diligence for a Thin Cats loan than I do here. I agree there are a few dubious ones on Thin Cats but they are fairly easy to spot and they struggle to get the funding, the hard part is sifting through the others working out the levels of security, and the cash flow backing based on the financial/commercial strength of the business, and assessing the risks compared with the rate. But then the rate is often higher than the standard 12% here to compensate for that extra risk.
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alanp
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Post by alanp on Feb 4, 2016 12:58:13 GMT
So I can see that with the SS model there is always a very clearly defined security on offer and a fairly reliable LTV figure based on professional valuations, based, presumably, on 'worst case scenarios'.......is this approximately correct? I'm new here, so am still trying to understand the set-up. Looking at the Wales land deal for example the LTV is not being assessed against the "worst case scenario" which in the valuation report means a "90 day marketing period" but is instead based on the "commercial" value.
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on Feb 4, 2016 13:31:32 GMT
So I can see that with the SS model there is always a very clearly defined security on offer and a fairly reliable LTV figure based on professional valuations, based, presumably, on 'worst case scenarios'.......is this approximately correct? I'm new here, so am still trying to understand the set-up. Looking at the Wales land deal for example the LTV is not being assessed against the "worst case scenario" which in the valuation report means a "90 day marketing period" but is instead based on the "commercial" value. I guess the key here is later in the valuation, where they state that there is "good demand for this site" which I guess gives SS the opinion that the site would sale at Market Value.
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alanp
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Post by alanp on Feb 4, 2016 17:36:56 GMT
Not disagreeing, hopefully they are correct. What I was pointing out that the LTV is NOT against "worst case"
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 4, 2016 17:36:59 GMT
Looking at the Wales land deal for example the LTV is not being assessed against the "worst case scenario" which in the valuation report means a "90 day marketing period" but is instead based on the "commercial" value. I guess the key here is later in the valuation, where they state that there is "good demand for this site" which I guess gives SS the opinion that the site would sale at Market Value. If there really is good demand, why is there such a huge difference between the 'value' and the '90-day value'? (Using the 'value' results in a 65% LTV. Using the '90-day value' results in a 92% LTV.) Perhaps it simply means that the market is rather thin, and if you need to sell the property in a hurry you'd need to offer a significant discount, whereas if you could wait for the right buyer to come along you'd get a lot more for it. But wouldn't any buyer would know that as well, and not be willing to offer the full 'value' because they know they have minimal competition? If the property has been repossessed by SS and has been on the market for a number of months waiting for the right buyer to come along, I would expect someone interested in the property would think they could get it cheaply. I suppose it depends a lot on how much pressure to sell SS would be under. Under the new SS Ts&Cs, interest will stop being paid when the loan matures, and there'd be no incentive for investors to stay in this loan hoping the accruing interest will be paid if there were SS investments that still were paying monthly interest. So I'd expect there'd be a massive run for the exit as maturity approaches, and investors will find the SM very different than it is today with 'overdue' loans. Investors still holding parts in such a situation will want SS to get them out as soon as they can recover all capital and accrued interest, so it could be a difficult balancing act between a potentially higher price achieved if they don't rush the sale and the ever-increasing accrued interest. At the same time, SS could be under some pressure not to just dump the property because of their obligation to treat the borrower fairly, though perhaps that's not a big concern. In short, it would be a lot better for all concerned if the borrower repaid the loan on time!
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 4, 2016 18:19:25 GMT
90 day to...? Finding a buyer? Completion of all due diligence and exchanging contracts? Completion of the purchase?
The first is much easier than the other two.
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cooling_dude
Bye Bye's for the PPI
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Post by cooling_dude on Feb 4, 2016 18:29:19 GMT
90 day to...? Finding a buyer? Completion of all due diligence and exchanging contracts? Completion of the purchase? The first is much easier than the other two. Surveyors provide market valuations restricted to shorter hypothetical 90 or 180 day marketing period which assume similar transaction conditions. This hypothetical timeframe is to market the property and complete the resale. It's worth pointing out that in the “bridging loan world” bridging loan lenders normally use a 180 day for their LTV. If a surveyor is happy that the property will sell easily in the current market, they would normally indicate that the 180 day marketing period value is the same or very close to the market value.
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beechside
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Post by beechside on Feb 4, 2016 18:40:17 GMT
For domestic properties, there are plenty of companies that will buy your house at 70% to 85% of its valuation. They happily buy at a discount and then sell at market value more slowly, making a good capital gain in the process. I don't imagine it works quite that way for farms and commercial properties but the Leatherhead property would sell quite easily to one of these companies for 75% to 80% and they complete in a week, typically.
Just type "we buy your house" into Google (other search engines are available. . .)
I investigated them once when in a rut. Three companies offered around 85% of an independent valuation but that was a little low. Quite different in the case of a default, of course. Getting 85% back on a 65 or 70% LTV would be absolutely fine to cover costs, final fees and legals.
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mikes1531
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Post by mikes1531 on Feb 4, 2016 20:59:34 GMT
For domestic properties, there are plenty of companies that will buy your house at 70% to 85% of its valuation. They happily buy at a discount and then sell at market value more slowly, making a good capital gain in the process. I don't imagine it works quite that way for farms and commercial properties but the Leatherhead property would sell quite easily to one of these companies for 75% to 80% and they complete in a week, typically. I investigated them once when in a rut. Three companies offered around 85% of an independent valuation but that was a little low. Quite different in the case of a default, of course. Getting 85% back on a 65 or 70% LTV would be absolutely fine to cover costs, final fees and legals. I realise these companies exist, and they could be useful if an owner needs to dispose of a property quickly. The owner's equity, of course, would take a very large hit in such a circumstance. That's no problem if it was the owner that decided to do this. A lender, such a P2P platform, using that sort of service after a borrower defaults is, unfortunately, a very different situation and, IMHO, would expose them to accusations of 'dumping' the property just to get out of it. For better or worse, lenders have a legal obligation to treat their borrowers fairly, so they easily could find themselves in court defending their actions if they are too quick to sell. That's part of the reason specialised LPA receivers exist, and why it's necessary to wait for those receivers to do marketing research and make recommendations as to the best way forward. The process of disposing of foreclosed property is not a quick one. Disclaimer: I'm no expert in this area. I'm basing the above on what I've seen at other P2P platforms I've invested in when they've had to deal with defaults. And it's all JMHO.
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daveb4
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Post by daveb4 on Feb 4, 2016 21:50:39 GMT
Valuations due diligence, my take. Residential not too bad - professional valuers usually air on side of caution so should get away with 80% eg after quick sale and liquidator costs. Commercial completely different - depending on freehold, leases etc. If freehold I work on 70% or the valuers 90 day value whichever is the lower. I have seen though a number after costs and auction go as low as 50% so more care needed. As far as mortgage debentures etc worth generally nothing as although they are worth money whilst trading we would be enforcing when business in liquidation so in most circumstance I count them as nil. This is my general due dillegence and if this ticked then look at the business. It is slightly wrong to rely on security rather than business but saves me a lot of time. Oh and I like the opportunity to ask and view questions.
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