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Post by andrewholgate on Feb 10, 2016 10:35:30 GMT
I've provided the following accuracy feedback to the BBC about their story: 'P2P quote from Adair Turner grossly misrepresented what he was addressing. My transcript from the broadcast at about 06:18 on BBC4 is: "I strongly suspect that the losses on peer-to-peer lending [breathe in] which will emerge within the next five to ten years [breathe in] will make the worst bankers look like absolute lending geniuses. You [emphatic]cannot lend money[end emphatic] to small and medium enterprises in particular [breathe in] without somebody going and doing good credit underwriting. This idea that you can just automate that onto a platform I think it has a role to play but I think it will end up producing big losses." The BBC quote used was "The losses which will emerge from peer-to-peer lending over the next five to 10 years will make the bankers look like lending geniuses". This dramatically shifts the emphasis to all of P2P rather than the use of automated instead of full credit underwriting in P2P platforms lending to small and medium businesses that the more full quote shows he was discussing.' Being a banker, I've said this all along. Here is my quote from the Telegraph way back in October 2012... link I've said it consistently every since. With all due respect to Lord Turner, he saw the problems of the industry and has held some very high positions and is incredibly erudite.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 10, 2016 10:51:29 GMT
Please don't deliberately misrepresent what I wrote by removing the relevant portion of the transcript to make it look as though my objection to the BBC also did what the BBC did. Kindly quote the whole of what he said, not repeat the selective misrepresentative quoting done by the BBC but now misrepresenting what I wrote as well as what Lord Turner said. You miss my point completely. The BBC article says he said something. DId he say it? Well, yes, he did. Look - you've transcribed the bit where he said it, so you've demonstrated that he did. Yet you're saying he didn't say it. Was it wrapped in caveats which change the meaning? Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think the following sentence (which you've also taken out of context - the only way to NOT "selectively quote" what he said is to have a verbatim transcript of the ENTIRE interview) does change the meaning, just expands upon the reasons why. The fact remains that he did say what the article says he said...
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Post by yorkshireman on Feb 10, 2016 11:02:09 GMT
Turner represents the financial status quo which hates 'disruptive' interlopers. That says it all.
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Post by yorkshireman on Feb 10, 2016 11:09:46 GMT
With all due respect to Lord Turner, he saw the problems of the industry and has held some very high positions and is incredibly erudite. Erudition doesn’t guarantee competence or action.
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james
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Post by james on Feb 10, 2016 11:40:33 GMT
Thanks @timmy, that wasn't working when I checked a while before you did and you beat me to it.  And it turns out that the transcript I gave correctly reflected what first appeared on Radio 4 but the fuller quote at 1:17:25 has more words that were removed from the version at 0:23:27 and which further emphasis the sub-part of P2P that he was concerned about. Here's a revised transcript that covers the longer version: "Lord Turner: I strongly suspect that the losses on peer-to-peer lending [breathe in] which will emerge within the next five to ten years [breathe in] will make the worst bankers look like absolute lending geniuses. Because I think a group of people are going into a lending process on a technical platform without anybody really doing go out and kick the tires credit analysis. You [emphatic]cannot lend money[end emphatic] to small and medium enterprises in particular [breathe in] without somebody going and doing good credit underwriting which is understanding you know where are these premises that the guy says he's got, you know what are the machines he's got, you know, does he really know or she know what they're doing? This idea that you can just automate that onto a platform I think it has a role to play but I think it will end up producing big losses.Interviewer: Does that mean the Financial Conduct Authority - the replacement organisation for the body you used to head - is asleep at the wheel on this?Lord Turner: Well. I think there is to a degree an element of conduct where there has to be a bit of you know buyer beware caveat emptor and you know obviously if people are mis-selling in the sense of if there are people who are running peer-to-peer lending platforms who are pretending that as it were the sponsor is doing a degree of credit underwriting credit analysis which isn't there then that has to be constrained. But if it is absolutely clear to people that they are meant to be making their own credit decisions by looking at the information available, then you know life has to have some toughness to it. If you do crazy things you do have to sometimes face the consequences.Interviewer: Because ...not intelligible... this is not sophisticated investors there are adverts on the tube for this stuff. There are adverts on bus stops.Lord Turner: Well again I think we should be very careful of the advertisement for it, we should make sure that there is clear warnings within it. I think we need to encourage people only to participate in this if they have money which they can afford to lose. This should not be any core part of the investment strategy of somebody who needs to be certain and able to conserve capital and we need warnings of that." So watch out for automated or no underwriting and don't make platforms which act in that way part of your core investment strategy would seem to be a fair summary of his concerns. |
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james
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Post by james on Feb 10, 2016 11:49:31 GMT
my point it change the meaning I agree, and it took me fewer edits than the BBC did to get you saying something you didn't really mean, just as they did for Lord Turner and your initial quoting did of my own post. For anyone who missed it, I selectively edited out parts of what adrianc wrote to grossly change the meaning of what he wrote, to illustrate what the BBC did. Editing has uses but it can also be misused or done wrongly, as the BBC did in its story and as I did in this illustration. To further help the misrepresentation I did as the BBC did and failed to do as I usually do and the the elipsis to show where parts had been removed. Going back to the point, he said what the BBC quoted but the more full context greatly narrowed what he was speaking about, away from all of P2P. That difference matters to us as investors in the platforms which don't act as he described and to those platforms themselves, because the short quote in the story tends to condemn all of P2P and that's clearly not what he was doing.
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Post by misotu on Feb 10, 2016 13:28:59 GMT
Was it wrapped in caveats which change the meaning? Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think the following sentence (which you've also taken out of context - the only way to NOT "selectively quote" what he said is to have a verbatim transcript of the ENTIRE interview) does change the meaning, just expands upon the reasons why. The fact remains that he did say what the article says he said... Actually, he very specifically spoke about lending to business. Removing all reference to business lending is unacceptable editing of quotes by the BBC, resulting in a sensational but fundamentally misleading representation of the speaker's view.
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Post by misotu on Feb 10, 2016 13:30:09 GMT
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rogerbu
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Post by rogerbu on Feb 10, 2016 15:18:10 GMT
Lets keep this in perspective.
On my P2P portfolio I have had a couple of hundred £ losses so far on an average return of 8.5% over the last year.
On my similar sized VCT portfolio I have had a 12 M return of 11% including 7.5% dividends (tax free)
On my similar sized share portfolio the last 12 months have produced a return of -5% inclusive of a 2.3% dividend reinvestment
Whilst the bankers and IFA recommended investments have been.
The FTSE100 has had a a 12Mth growth of -17% plus I believe a yield of about 2.3%
Bank/Building society deposits have returned at best 1.5-2%
Who should I be listening too?
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Post by zzr600 on Feb 10, 2016 15:52:06 GMT
Be interested to to know what VCTs you invest in? I've tended to avoid VCTs as they are less transparent, higher risk and less liquid than stock market investments, and I've avoided the stock market completely the past couple of years (due to reasons that are now apparent)
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Post by zzr600 on Feb 10, 2016 17:14:38 GMT
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pikestaff
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Post by pikestaff on Feb 10, 2016 17:20:41 GMT
Journalists simplify story! Shock! Horror! Hold the front page!
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Post by cakeeater on Feb 10, 2016 18:54:12 GMT
Journalists simplify story! Shock! Horror! Hold the front page! The problem is that, whilst we know the media's mal quoting and poor editing is just that, there are many out there who believe what they are reading/hearing, taking things at face value and responding accordingly, which could potentially send the P2P sector into a spin. Somebody mentioned (somewhere on this forum) about the platforms themselves counter challenging these claims/arguments/prophesies. I think, if the platforms are operating robustly, they should stand up and make some noise. Reputation is everything.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Feb 10, 2016 19:24:31 GMT
If anybody is making major life and investment decisions on a single headline soundbite, they probably have far bigger problems than the subtler risk profiles of P2P lending to unsecured SMEs...
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Post by cakeeater on Feb 10, 2016 19:45:30 GMT
Hey, just typed a really prosaic response and hit something on my keypad that obliterated it into the electronic ether  , so in brief "True, very true ... baby sector ... garner reputation ... attract new toe dippers ... mercy of media agenda ...". you get the idea |
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And it turns out that the transcript I gave correctly reflected what first appeared on Radio 4 but the fuller quote at 1:17:25 has more words that were removed from the version at 0:23:27 and which further emphasis the sub-part of P2P that he was concerned about. Here's a revised transcript that covers the longer version:
, so in brief "True, very true ... baby sector ... garner reputation ... attract new toe dippers ... mercy of media agenda ...". you get the idea